CDX2 vs streaming.

ChrisSU posted:

Finkfan posted:

[@mention:50422349809511500] the 272 has only been up and running since Friday and I have no idea how much burn in time is needed. You have to pop round for a listen and see what you think. I still have a lot to figure out. I don't know how to get the thumbnail images of my music to show up on the app. Just get a black box. I've not tried Spotify yet. Not sure if you need to sign up to a paid account for that to work? Or if I can send the free version over from my iPhone via Bluetooth? I've got a few weeks to have a play around. 

You can use the free version of Spotify over Bluetooth, but to use Spotify Connect with the Naim app, you need a paid Premium account. There's probably still a free trial for this.

FYI - Only the Spotify paid subscription provides the 320kbp "extreme" bit rate (at least here in Canada.) I like it and use it a lot - For well recorded material it is rather good and has an excellent library. 

One of the best things about streaming is the availability of high resolution files. Listening to say Meet Me In London  (on Naim label) or Mavis Staples "One True Vine" is great. On the basis of "source first" then this also a cheap upgrade. A few hundred downloads compared to say $5000 on a cd player? 

My CD rips sound much better than playing the cd direct. I have a mediocre Marantz, so no surprise there. But having heard a CDx2, (which was great), I would be more inclined to upgrade streamers.

Yes there are plenty of albums that may work better on vinyl, but I won't go there again. Get the occasional yearning for an LP12 but rather than spend $5000 on a decent second hand one would improve the streamer.

The user experience with streaming is the best I have ever had. There is enough decent hi-res to keep me happy. 

Having heard the NDX and NDS I can see that it's possible to get real hifi in the digital world.

A 272 or beyond would be my next step

If it helps, I have found a preference for a ripped CD replayed with LAN streaming over CD replay. My CDS3 was subsequently sold. 

I'm really enjoying the 272. I didn't think streaming would be for me, but It sounds great. It's still early days but I'm starting to think about trading in the CDX2 and DIN cable. This would free up funds (and room) for something else like the uniti core or a power supply. I like the idea of the core. Put the disc in. Let it do its thing. Then press play. Brilliant. 

Finland, keep in mind  simple laptop or PC/Mac to rip CD to  a NAS.  Core is OK for ripping, but then what?  You start buying hidef (24 bit) downloads & its ripping function is doing nothing.   Cost & the flexibility of so many other features  of NAS win hands down & by a significant amount.  And the same is true of any & all of the CD rip machines.

Good point Mike. It's all new to me. I want to keep things simple. At the moment I'm ripping to my laptop with wmp which is very easy. 

Yes but Dupree just added a Core to his 272,he has a subject about it under Streaming,and says the sound is much better than through a NAS,or I assume laptop.One thing I know for sure,the 272 is much better with an XPS DR.

No quarter posted:

Yes but Dupree just added a Core to his 272,he has a subject about it under Streaming,and says the sound is much better than through a NAS,or I assume laptop.One thing I know for sure,the 272 is much better with an XPS DR.

On a well implemented network there should be no difference between NAS and direct Serve playback.

Finkfan posted:

Good point Mike. It's all new to me. I want to keep things simple. At the moment I'm ripping to my laptop with wmp which is very easy. 

Yes it's easy with a Core/Serve & maybe a little easier than with a laptop.  But for goodness sake what is so hard about ripping with a laptop?  My concern with all the CD rippers is that once you have ripped all your CD's ,  then what. OK the Core is a good server & only the rip section becomes redundant, but it is now effectively a NAS that costs x4 a normal two bay NAS.  NAS has more flexibility in UPnP software selection & file management compared to what I found to be restrictive limitations of the UServe.      I'm not getting into which has the 'best' SQ other than say I have a friend who is convinced his new Qnap is better than his old US & one or two forum members agree.    Final point is you need to forget WMP (OK for laptops) & move to lossless such as .wav, .flac etc.. 

Finkfan posted:

I'm really enjoying the 272. I didn't think streaming would be for me, but It sounds great. It's still early days but I'm starting to think about trading in the CDX2 and DIN cable. This would free up funds (and room) for something else like the uniti core or a power supply. I like the idea of the core. Put the disc in. Let it do its thing. Then press play. Brilliant. 

I felt very much like that when I started with streaming. I bought a Unitiserve for precisely the reasons you mention. I'd probably have been too scared to do it otherwise. 

But two years later, with the albums all ripped, the Serve was just an expensive box. Out of interest I tried streaming direct from my backup Nas and found the sound to be better. So I sold the Serve. 

When I rip CDs now I use dbpoweramp, which gives total control of the album art and metadata in a way that the Serve never did. Four years down the line I'm still finding albums with very poor album art, and occasional misnamed tracks, which were ripped by the Serve. There really is nothing special about it, other than convenience, and the same goes for the Core. On the other hand, as mentioned above, the XPSDR really does make a large improvement over the bare 272.

Finkfan posted:

I'm really enjoying the 272. I didn't think streaming would be for me, but It sounds great. It's still early days but I'm starting to think about trading in the CDX2 and DIN cable. This would free up funds (and room) for something else like the uniti core or a power supply. I like the idea of the core. Put the disc in. Let it do its thing. Then press play. Brilliant. 

And I fully understand how you feel [@mention:51970829741422995].

I bought my UnitiServe for exactly the same reasons.  Several years later (and 4 UnitiServes on), with a fully implemented NAS, I still would not imagine my network without a convenience of the UnitiServe. If and when I dies, I will simply buy the Core.

Regardles of the solution you decide (Core or NAS)  - streaming on a local network, be it CD rips or high-resolution files, is a joy to use. 

Finkfan posted:

I'm really enjoying the 272. I didn't think streaming would be for me, but It sounds great. It's still early days but I'm starting to think about trading in the CDX2 and DIN cable. This would free up funds (and room) for something else like the uniti core or a power supply. I like the idea of the core. Put the disc in. Let it do its thing. Then press play. Brilliant. 

If you're considering a Core, and see this upgrade process as a straight replacement of your CD player, I would consider trying the much vaunted SPDIF output of the Core into an NDAC, which I suspect would give you better sound quality for less cash. You'd have the same PSU upgrade options as you have with the CDX2 or 272. (Plenty of other DACs that you could choose from, too.)

Nick from Suffolk posted:

I have heard Tidal a few times now and, like others above, cannot understand how something that sounds like poor AM radio with over-compression, can even remotely be contemplated as a source. One would be better off finding a YouTube video and let the visual distraction mitigate the poor sound quality, if the only use is of trying out new music.  

I completely agree with Chris and a number of others who have replied to your post.

Tidal sound quality sounds pretty good to me. It's maybe not quite as good as local 16 bit CD rips, but there isn't a huge difference, and the sound quality is significantly better than that of Spotify Premium to which I used to subscribe.

Nick, if you have truly found that Tidal sounds like poor AM radio with over-compression, then either something is badly wrong with your setup or with your implementation of Tidal. It sounds absolutely nothing like AM radio at all, and contrary to your observation it most certainly can be contemplated as a decent source.

Of course, I access Tidal via Linn on one of my systems, and via Lumin/BubbleuPnP on the other and not via Naim Audio. However, I did at one time use a Naim ND5XS/Hugo streaming setup, and Tidal sounded perfectly reasonable on that, so I don't think a poor Naim implementation of Tidal can be blamed for your findings. Indeed, I recollect that when I attended a Naim Statement demo last year (using an NDS/555 streaming combo), some of the demonstration tracks were played sourced from Tidal. Hardly something that Naim would have contemplated if it sounded no better than AM radio.     

ChrisSU posted:

Finkfan posted:

I'm really enjoying the 272. I didn't think streaming would be for me, but It sounds great. It's still early days but I'm starting to think about trading in the CDX2 and DIN cable. This would free up funds (and room) for something else like the uniti core or a power supply. I like the idea of the core. Put the disc in. Let it do its thing. Then press play. Brilliant. 

If you're considering a Core, and see this upgrade process as a straight replacement of your CD player, I would consider trying the much vaunted SPDIF output of the Core into an NDAC, which I suspect would give you better sound quality for less cash. You'd have the same PSU upgrade options as you have with the CDX2 or 272. (Plenty of other DACs that you could choose from, too.)

In that scenario the SU would still ultimately need replacing, and the OP would get no internet radio or Tidal, or the option for the very good FM module. It's certainly an option to consider though. 

I can't see me going down the ndac route. Part of what I like about the 272 is the integrated dac. I didn't give it much thought at the time but now my system is in my office, which is half the size of my lounge, box count will come in to play. I just don't have the space. I haven't tried a 282 which was the original direction I was going, but I feel this my take me towards a system that is too much for my room. Ive already found that the dedicated supply cable size has a big impact on this. I guess I could chop everything in for an atom, but the speakers I have would always be hungry for the 250. 272/XPSDR/250DR is where I can see my system finishing. 

Mike-B posted:

Finland, keep in mind  simple laptop or PC/Mac to rip CD to  a NAS.  Core is OK for ripping, but then what?  You start buying hidef (24 bit) downloads & its ripping function is doing nothing.   Cost & the flexibility of so many other features  of NAS win hands down & by a significant amount.  And the same is true of any & all of the CD rip machines.

I agree. I just don't understand dedicated CD rippers. Admittedly I haven't tried one, and will not discount the possibility of some sonic benefits. But what with the plethora of high resolution albums, even allowing for the fairly high proportion of duds, why limit yourself to Red Book hifi standards written decades ago?

Streaming good quality files wins for me, on balance.

My experience with Tidal echoes that of CHRISSU and HMACK. Tidal sound quality sounds pretty good to me. It' not quite as good as local 16 bit CD rips, but there isn't a huge difference.  I don't use it as my primary source but as a way to investigate new music or for casual listening of music that I don't own it is pretty good.  I also use the desktop client (which allows me to playback the MQA Master files) at work with a pair of headphones and am happy enough with the sound quality to not feel I need lossless CD rips in that environment. 

I just think there's so many variables in all of this to make any conclusion impossible and personal preference will therefore be the deciding factor.  As to whether CD or NAS or streaming is sonically superior will be down to a variety of factors, mastering, quality of the CDP, network, file type etc. For me CD and indeed vinyl is refreshingly simple even if the latter does require more care and maintenance.  For others the flexibility etc of streaming/network enabled solutions is the winner.  That's about it really - it's all good.

Regards,

Lindsay

Finkfan posted:

I can't see me going down the ndac route. Part of what I like about the 272 is the integrated dac. I didn't give it much thought at the time but now my system is in my office, which is half the size of my lounge, box count will come in to play. I just don't have the space. I haven't tried a 282 which was the original direction I was going, but I feel this my take me towards a system that is too much for my room. Ive already found that the dedicated supply cable size has a big impact on this. I guess I could chop everything in for an atom, but the speakers I have would always be hungry for the 250. 272/XPSDR/250DR is where I can see my system finishing. 

The point of my suggestion was that if you get a Core (and use SPDIF) the only part of the 272 you'd be using would be the DAC, as you'd be bypassing it's streamer, and you already have an analogue preamp, so spending less money on a better DAC would give you better sound quality overall and no redundancy. As HH says, you would not gain the web based services you get from a streamer (Tidal, iRadio etc.) but that isn't a sound quality benefit.

Ah right. Got ya! 

Maybe the core isn't the way to go then. I can trade the CDX2 and din in for half an XPSDR. That's looking like the better option. That will be my box lineup complete. 

I have to say that while variable ,  SQ with Tidal Hi Fi service is generally as good as local streaming from my NAS drive and in fact with some music seems even better in some ways. I use a 272 with 555PS and am in the US with very good bandwidth in my house.

I listen to tidal about 1/3-1/2 of the time lately. To me it almost always sounds very good. I usually don't own the CDs for the tracks I get from Tidal so I can't make an exact A-B comparison. Maybe I'm just lucky in that I have fiber internet connection with extremely low latency? Maybe living in the US is better? IDK but I believe it is pretty close to streaming local rips.

I'm sat in my office, doing a little paperwork whilst it rains. After listening to a few tracks I felt the music just didn't sound right. Neither from the local streams, cd or Tidal. I decided to experiment! I shut down the system and removed it from the 10mm dedicated supply. Its now plugged in to the office ring main. Wow! What a difference! Not all good, but not all bad either! Details have returned. Music iS flowing better. The boomy bass I'd put down to room issues has completely gone! The downside is that the system is now lacking slightly in bass. The low end grunt bass has been drastically reduced. This has changed the sound of Tidal too. It's far superior to what I was hearing 10 minutes ago. It's no longer flat and lifeless. It's dynamic and near as damn it at cd level. 

Now this could mean a few things. Either the 'poor' power supply has become a great leveller of the inputs to the system or the 10mm dedicated supply is too much for my little room. The difference is huge between these two supplies. 

I did think ahead whilst building the office and there is a 6mm cable run in along side the 10mm. I will, when I get a moment, get the 10 changed to 6 and see how this sounds. My gut feeling is that this will be a sweet spot, being on a dedicated supply and less meaty than the 10mm. I'll post my findings. Whatever happens the 272 is staying! 

To those who use Tidal, what is your mains supply? Does it only sound ropey on a 10mm cable? 

It could be that you have RFI (or other problems) on you incoming mains feed, and the 10mm dedicated circuit is giving you a higher quality connection to the crap on the mains, so more of it gets to your system!