ndac characteristics

Have you thought about an XPSDR as an alternative? Try both and see what you think. 

Hmm, was thinking that too. Seems a waste of NDX (transport only) and only using 1 input on the ndac. Quite happy with blu ray, TV etc going through AV amp. 

Any experience of XPS on streamers? 

Of course I would defo try before the plunge.

It's more detailed across the board and is capable of really nailing the timing. I thought this was a strong suit of my CDX2 and HDX - then I heard them with the DAC.  It sounds a bit "digital". I went with CDX2 and HDX into DAC in preference to my intended upgrade to CDS3. A compromise but one that was worth making. Nothing matched the last degree of organic realism that the CDS3 could achieve. I missed that until I got the NDS. Which for all its huge capabilities contains none other than essentially the Naim DAC. So it's good. And it doesn't always sound a bit "digital".

ray sheldon posted:

Hmm, was thinking that too. Seems a waste of NDX (transport only) and only using 1 input on the ndac. Quite happy with blu ray, TV etc going through AV amp. 

Any experience of XPS on streamers? 

Of course I would defo try before the plunge.

Ray, I was running a NDX into a 82/Supercap/250 Olive system but was in the position to upgrade the system, at the Bristol show last year I asked Naim the best upgrade route they said the first thing to do was add a XPRDR power supply to the NDX but to arrange a demo at my local dealer to listen to the differences.

After several discussions with my local dealer I arranged to audition a new system consisting of a NDX,282, Supercap DR and a 250 DR running into a pair of PMC 20 23 speakers after settling with the system the dealer added a XPS onto the NDX that was the first item in the shopping basket a worthwhile upgrade.

I think a good way to describe its character. You will hear a piano in a horizontal way and a electrical guitar in a lively way so to say...

// Anders

Hi Ray

I have the ndac combined with xs separates. It has been a great upgrade for me. It does seem to add more bass and detail. However the SN2 may keep better control of bass than my application. I have read many complimentary things about TQ black cables which apparently give improvements to upper and lower frequencies. I must try these cables one day but for now new speakers are the priority. 

Out of interest did you compare 272/250 with NDX/SN2? The constant positive comments on here keep nudging me in that direction!! 

I actually use NDX + nDAC (+SuperNait2 and HiCap DR) on daily basis. nDAC makes for a significant improvement over the NDXs internal processor.

What do I like about this setup?  Clarity, amount of details, wider sound stage. Bass is not an issue as such - it's more controlled with nDAC, but does not appear to be deeper.

Further improvement comes from adding a power supply to nDAC.

Speaker cables: NACA5 is a good cable. Unfortunately SuperLumina is even better 

Isn't it a great hobby, different people hear the same thing and respond differentl, keeps it interesting. I use a bare NDX, I've always found the nDAC a bit bright, it could be my room, it could be the interaction with the olive amps (82/HICAP/135s), it might be my personal taste. Many people love it and find it a significant step-up, it's definitely worth a listen, but n there's no certainty it'll work for you. The nDAC does offer more clarity and detail, but not in a way that works for me, good luck.

i bought the ndac and 555 to add to my HDX at more or less the same time.  I felt the NDAC was a significantly bigger improvement to the HDX than the 555.  More organic, natural sounding in my room.  Not bright at all to my ears. Just detail and flow and beguiling smoothness. Putting the 555 on the NDAC raised the bar even further.  i've not had a source itch in the years since.  However, next weekend i am 'borrowing' a NDS for the weekend so who knows 

I started with an HDX, then added an nDAC which was a very big improvement, then an XPS 2 (non-DR) which was a further improvement though not quite as big,  Amp is a 282 + 250 (non-DR) + HiCap DR.

I'm thinking of taking the plunge to an XPS 2 DR.  I expect it will be another improvement though smaller again than the last one.  I will probably pick one up second-hand and would be interested in comment from anyone as to whether there is a material difference between a purpose-built DR and a non-DR that has been upgraded, assuming both to be in good condition and well maintained.  The latter are of course cheaper to buy, or I could get my own one upgraded.

I know longer have the HDX, by the way.  In its place I have a Bluesound Node 2 streamer which (to me) sounds just as good and will suit me well until Naim produce a streamer of their own that will do Qobuz and uncompressed multi-room.  

555PS on the DAC is transformative in a way which you may find difficult to believe - until you hear it. The DAC seemed to vanish into a much more coherent musical landscape. This compared to running the DAC with the XPS2. But the NDS just stomped all over it. As soon as the dealer demo unit started playing in my lounge they were never going to see it again. But different strokes for different folks. As long as fun is had. That's the important bit.

ray sheldon posted:

System:

NDX, SN2, US (rips in WAV),PMC 25.23, 2X PL and (undeciced) superlumina interconnect. 

Hi all,

Looking for feedback from ndac owners/users please as to the characteristics of the ndac....just a few words to describe what it adds.

I Definately don't want 'bright' or 'heavier bass'.  All through my different set ups over the years I've experienced some annoying exaggerated top end, although I suppose this is more dependant on quality of the CD. I.e. some discs sound great and some just bloody awful....

HDX, 202, 200(twice), SN1, SN2(twice), gb1i and other bits along the way.

I've just removed the superlumina and put on the lavender. Strangely I prefer this.  Less aggressive sound and easier over a large range of rips.....warmer, quieter. 

If I'd have done some research first I would have avoided it.....bloody silver in hifi doesn't agree with me. I guess it works best in the top end of gear with top quality music formats. Hi res etc.  Don't get me wrong, in some ways it had benefits, very clear sound, more space between instruments etc. 

I've read the ndac increases bass and ive got enough of that already hence my reason for not adding a HC to the SN as I've heard the addition of HC adds more of everything. 

No recommendedactions on hugo etc etc, I want to keep all Naim. 

I wonder if there is a speaker cable that's a tad smoother, warmer than naca5?

Best,

Ray.

May I ask why you are looking after nDAC "descriptions"? Can't you simply borrow a second hand nDAC and try it between the NDX and the SN2 for a couple of days? If you do so, please make sure that the nDAC has the latest firmware upgrade!

I've recently done quite an extensive comparison between NDX and nDAC. I've written about my comparison in many threads here already so in short:

NDX has more aggressive and forward sound which, in my system, got tiring and slightlly sibilant in a long run. First impression of NDX can fool you because it just sounds so fun. 

nDAC might first sound slightly slower or even sluggish in comparison to the aggressive and forward sound of NDX, but when you give it a good listening you notice that it's clearly more refined sounding source with better resolution and depth. NDX might have more attack but it seriously falls short in refinement and resolution. Soundstage with nDAC is slightly wider and it has overall smoother and easier sound signature. Also I noticed that the bass lines hit clearly deeper with nDAC while with NDX they might appear punchier. I did my comparison with bare nDAC and NDX. After adding an aftermarket PSU to nDAC later on, there's certainly no lack of punchiness in the sound anymore. 

I had the NDAC with my CDX2 and a XPS. When I added the NDAC I heard more of everything. Detail retrieval improved, less edgy more relaxed sound, wider sound space, tonal quality improved...... a fantastic improvement at the time....

Bert Schurink posted:

I had the NDAC with my CDX2 and a XPS. When I added the NDAC I heard more of everything. Detail retrieval improved, less edgy more relaxed sound, wider sound space, tonal quality improved...... a fantastic improvement at the time....

Bert, according to your experience is the Ndac  an improvement when added to the CDX2?

I have CDX2 and NDAC with no PS. The NDAC is feeded by a MAC A+ through a Gustard. I'm not fond of testing different configurations thats why  I have never connected the CDX2 through the NDAC. I have some ripped  CDs which I have compared replaying them with the CD and the Ndac. Some I prefer via CDX2 and some via NDAC.  I feel that the NDAC is more refined and adds more resolution and detail which I like.

I will research how to connect the CDX2 to the NDAC and do some testing. May be I could have both configurations cabled.

Don't forget naim has done updates to the n-DAC software in the past (and I assume will continue to do so). I thought the last update was really quite worthwhile - and free !

The DAC will lift the performance of the CDX2 considerably. But it's always best to listen for yourself.

A CDX2.2 just plugs in via a digital BNC cable. A CDX2 needs to be modified, after which it will only work with the DAC, not without it. I had mine done.

'' Out of interest did you compare 272/250 with NDX/SN2? The constant positive comments on here keep nudging me in that direction!!  ''

Stuart, Yes. I already owned a 272 before going out and buying all from new again. Long story short, had to sell HDX, SN2+HCdr just over a year ago. 

It wasn't my intention to end up with 272. As I(as funds allowed) climbed the ladder again, I went from unitiite to Superuniti, then added 200. Then swapped Su for 272.  All second hand, x display items so didn't lose much, if anything in the run up. (infact made profit on 272)!

To answer you Q.... I went to the dealer with the view of adding a 250 & XPS or go for NDX & SN.   I thought they both sounded good and either option would cost approx the same with 250/xps being slightly more expensive, although with the sale of 272, it worked out cheaper overall going for the latter.  

I recall the SN and NDX having less noise, it sounded cleaner and the dealer was super excited when we tested the SN/NDX after the 250/272 saying 'mate, it sounds twice as f****** good'.   I didn't add the XPS to either set up in the end.

I guess other reasons for going SN/NDX are...

1. A while ago I ditched 202/200 for a SN2. Loved it. I made this move also to stop thinking about upgrades. I saw SN2+HCdr a dead end really as it is. ok, you could start thinking add a 200/250 then swap the SN for a 282 etc. There's always a way they can tempt you!  But, I concluded that if I was happy(and I was) with SN+HCdr before, then I probably will be again(although, haven't got a HC yet).

2. I loved the HDX, great sound and simplicity.  I didn't go this way this time as HDX isnt a streamer as I'm sure you are aware. So I thought I would go NDX+US, which in my mind should be as good as, if not better than HDX. 

3. One day the 272 will be replaced by something more expensive, another upgrade if I'd have gone 272/250/XPS.

4. The belief when buying hifi is always spend most on source, then amp, then speakers. Allowing approx 10% for cables.  The 272/250 combo seems to go against that..... A great power amp fed by a cheaper streamer and pre amp!  If you was going to start from scratch, would you buy a ND5xs, 202 and 250?  I would imagine very few would.  Would you buy an NDX, 202 and 200 or NDX, 282, 200... well of course.  NDX beats 272 as a streamer, no doubt. 250 will beats SN power amp, no doubt.  But best to do the right way round in my mind.

5. Believing that source always come first, and if I find myself in the future in a position to upgrade, then moving from what I have to 282/200 or 282/250 makes sense on the back of NDX.  With a 272, you would eventually have to split streamer and pre, unless of course Naim bring out the much speculated 372 etc etc. To be honest, I'm not sure why Naim took this route or why people would bother. The idea of separates is 'separates'.    OK, before I get a load of abuse from the 272 camp, I am aware the SN is an intergated lol!  But, the SN is an exception on this occasion, being the great amp it is, and if I add a HC(which I might), I suppose it becomes separated, have 2 different power supplies ;-)

NBPF,

Yes, I would probably buy second hand anyway. Little if no loss if I didn't like it. 

All,

Thanks for your input so far. Some good feedback and advice.  I won't be rushing into anything, the whole system is just over 2 months old and sounds different every week! 

ray sheldon posted:

'' Out of interest did you compare 272/250 with NDX/SN2? The constant positive comments on here keep nudging me in that direction!!  ''

Stuart, Yes. I already owned a 272 before going out and buying all from new again. Long story short, had to sell HDX, SN2+HCdr just over a year ago. 

It wasn't my intention to end up with 272. As I(as funds allowed) climbed the ladder again, I went from unitiite to Superuniti, then added 200. Then swapped Su for 272.  All second hand, x display items so didn't lose much, if anything in the run up. (infact made profit on 272)!

To answer you Q.... I went to the dealer with the view of adding a 250 & XPS or go for NDX & SN.   I thought they both sounded good and either option would cost approx the same with 250/xps being slightly more expensive, although with the sale of 272, it worked out cheaper overall going for the latter.  

I recall the SN and NDX having less noise, it sounded cleaner and the dealer was super excited when we tested the SN/NDX after the 250/272 saying 'mate, it sounds twice as f****** good'.   I didn't add the XPS to either set up in the end.

I guess other reasons for going SN/NDX are...

1. A while ago I ditched 202/200 for a SN2. Loved it. I made this move also to stop thinking about upgrades. I saw SN2+HCdr a dead end really as it is. ok, you could start thinking add a 200/250 then swap the SN for a 282 etc. There's always a way they can tempt you!  But, I concluded that if I was happy(and I was) with SN+HCdr before, then I probably will be again(although, haven't got a HC yet).

2. I loved the HDX, great sound and simplicity.  I didn't go this way this time as HDX isnt a streamer as I'm sure you are aware. So I thought I would go NDX+US, which in my mind should be as good as, if not better than HDX. 

3. One day the 272 will be replaced by something more expensive, another upgrade if I'd have gone 272/250/XPS.

4. The belief when buying hifi is always spend most on source, then amp, then speakers. Allowing approx 10% for cables.  The 272/250 combo seems to go against that..... A great power amp fed by a cheaper streamer and pre amp!  If you was going to start from scratch, would you buy a ND5xs, 202 and 250?  I would imagine very few would.  Would you buy an NDX, 202 and 200 or NDX, 282, 200... well of course.  NDX beats 272 as a streamer, no doubt. 250 will beats SN power amp, no doubt.  But best to do the right way round in my mind.

5. Believing that source always come first, and if I find myself in the future in a position to upgrade, then moving from what I have to 282/200 or 282/250 makes sense on the back of NDX.  With a 272, you would eventually have to split streamer and pre, unless of course Naim bring out the much speculated 372 etc etc. To be honest, I'm not sure why Naim took this route or why people would bother. The idea of separates is 'separates'.    OK, before I get a load of abuse from the 272 camp, I am aware the SN is an intergated lol!  But, the SN is an exception on this occasion, being the great amp it is, and if I add a HC(which I might), I suppose it becomes separated, have 2 different power supplies ;-)

Any dealer that says 'man, that sounds twice as f... good' sounds like a pillock to me. A dealer is supposed to ask what the customer thinks. I can't really tell the difference between a 272/XPS/250 and an NDX/282/250, which is better than the Supernait 2, so perhaps the dealer has magical ears. 

My experience is the same as Patus. The ndac is better than ndx and excelent together with the ndx or a good transport. It really excels with psu. Soundwise I experience the ndac as dynamic, powerfull, organic, detailed and musical, more than ndx. There is a lot written here on the forum about Ndac and Ndx.

The Ndx is a great transport but I feel it really needs an external dac to lift it closer to cds3, nds, Klimax, cdx2-xps level. Even though 272 is good and practical it goes against Naim philosophy with source and pre before power-amp. 

Fred

HH,

I have put money on you being the 1st to respond to that ��

Have any of you experimented with what input to use on your amp for best results?

I have......

No difference between line inputs on the amp - checked few and found absolutely no diff.