Adding a digital source....

If you search the forum, you should be able to find excellent NDS vs. nDAC comparisons. Simon in Suffolk, among others, has reported comprehensive tests.

Both the nDAC and the NDS have been around for a while but Naim has continuously improved the devices via firmware upgrades. The last one for the nDAC (around Dec. 2015, I think) was, in my view, substantial.

Apart from sound quality, you should probably consider the implications of a LAN streaming solution (UPnP server + NDS) vs. a SPDIF streaming solution (player + nDAC). In both cases the source can be a Naim Core (it comes with both a UPnP server and a player) or any headless, fanless microserver like a mac mini, Raspberry Pi, fitPC, NUC, etc.

Here, the relevant questions are whether you are looking for support for multi-room replay and whether you want to rely on data transfer through the LAN at replay time. If you are interested in multi-room replay, go for a NDS and a LAN streaming solution. If you want to avoid data transfer through the LAN at replay time (for instance, because you do not want your source to be necessarily wired to the LAN), a SPDIF solution based on a DAC seems more natural.

No matter whether you go for a LAN or for a SPDIF streaming solution, I would not rely on the Core as a source. As I explained in Core specific threads, the software design of the Core is hopelessly obsolete and its implementation still immature, in my view.

I personally would start the journey with a second hand Naim DAC connected to a Raspberry Pi with a Hifiberry DIGI+ Pro hat. A second hand PS555 or a new DAC would then be natural upgrade options for this setup.

As an LP12 user have you not heard about Linn's streamers? At the level you're at, you should also audition one of the latest Katalyst KDSs and I'd also have a listen to a Chord Dave, which does good things.

If I were you, and buying new at the price point you seem to be looking at, I would compare the NDS/555 and Linn Klimax DS/3 (Katalyst) streamers. Perhaps, as DaveJ suggests, try & get a demo of a Chord Dave DAC combined with a good specialist streamer such as the Auralic Aries as an alternative. My own preference would be the Linn Klimax Katalyst, but your ears may disagree.

Second hand Linn Klimax DS/1 and DS/2 (or the almost as good, but cheaper, Klimax Renew DS/1 or DS/2) can be obtained quite easily for relatively reasonable prices these days, and might just be a good starting point for you. 

My personal opinion is that a 'proper' local network streamer (uPnP streamer coupled with a NAS) is the way to go if you are not completely confident about setting up something like a Raspberry Pi/nDac solution. I have both types of system. I have a Sonore microRendu (audiophile computer/renderer) with a Chord Hugo DAC in one system, and a Linn Klimax DS/1 streamer (with inbuilt DAC) in another. Although the microRendu/Hugo sounds pretty good (just not quite as good as the Linn Klimax DS/1), it was quite tricky to get up and running and working reliably. The Klimax DS/1 was pretty much simply plug & play, as I would also expect to be the case with either the NDS or Auralic Aries. In addition to the convenience of plug and play into your local network and NAS, these streamers also give much easier access to additional features such as Internet Radio and external streaming services such as Qobuz (Linn or Auralic), Tidal and Spotify. 

If you go with Naim NDS, Linn Klimax or Auralic uPnP streamers, you will need to use one of the Naim, Linn Kazoo or Auralic control apps respectively. Although Some people don't appear to like the Naim app, I personally would be pretty happy with any of the Linn, Naim or Auralic control apps, and would prefer them to any of the control options you would have to use with an SPDIF solution.     

You can pick up NDS as an ex-demo from certain dealers. That's how I got mine.

Quality of the digital transport and the DAC implementation is paramount when it comes to streaming. NDS is the best NAIM has at the moment and a right partner for your 252 / 300.

As to whether a replacement may be coming - potentially... But there is always something new, just around the corner. So one may spend a life-time waiting for the next best thing

Hmack posted:

...

Although Some people don't appear to like the Naim app, I personally would be pretty happy with any of the Linn, Naim or Auralic control apps, and would prefer them to any of the control options you would have to use with an SPDIF solution.     

Just a small precisation: you can actually use Linn Kazoo, Lumin, Bubble UPnP (but not Naim) control points with an SPDIF solution by running a UPnP server and upmpdcli (a MPD-based renderer, see https://www.lesbonscomptes.com/upmpdcli/) on the same device. This gives you a one-box solution (if the device comes with high-quality SPDIF output) or a two-box solution (if you need to add a USB->SPDIF bridge). In either case, it is a standard UPnP streaming solution. It's just that the UPnP server and the client run on the same device. If the server has access to local data, this setup gives you all the flexibility of LAN streaming (and control) while avoiding transferring large data sets over the LAN at replay time. Thus, the device running the UPnP server and the renderer does not actually need to be wired to the LAN. A wireless connection is perfectly enough.

And don't underestimate the importance of interface. Try and have a look at Roon working in someone's system. As well as  simply being the best interface out there by far R  will also give you the capability of multi-room and up-sampling and DSP equalisation. 

 My advice would be not to go in with a very expensive product until you actually get a feel for how you are going to utilise a digital front end. I would get an Auralic  Aeries mini which will connect directly to your preamp and "play" with this. It is Roon compatible and its Lightening app is probably the best of the rest out there. 

Anorher excellent option is the Bluesound node 2.  

 You will get either of these products for less than the price of a hi-line  and they both will give everything (and a lot more options )   the Linn or Naim equivalents do and the sound quality won't be too shabby,  but as mentioned above I would search out the experience first before delving in to sound quality.

.sjb

nbpf posted:

Hmack posted:

...

Although Some people don't appear to like the Naim app, I personally would be pretty happy with any of the Linn, Naim or Auralic control apps, and would prefer them to any of the control options you would have to use with an SPDIF solution.     

Just a small precisation: you can actually use Linn Kazoo, Lumin, Bubble UPnP (but not Naim) control points with an SPDIF solution by running a UPnP server and upmpdcli (a MPD-based renderer, see https://www.lesbonscomptes.com/upmpdcli/) on the same device. This gives you a one-box solution (if the device comes with high-quality SPDIF output) or a two-box solution (if you need to add a USB->SPDIF bridge). In either case, it is a standard UPnP streaming solution. It's just that the UPnP server and the client run on the same device. If the server has access to local data, this setup gives you all the flexibility of LAN streaming (and control) while avoiding transferring large data sets over the LAN at replay time. Thus, the device running the UPnP server and the renderer does not actually need to be wired to the LAN. A wireless connection is perfectly enough.

Yes. Actually this is more or less what I do with my microRendu/Hugo set-up. I have Bubble UPnP server running on my microRendu and use the open source Lumin app on my iPad as the control point. However, it was not entirely straightforward to set up and is not 100% reliable, requiring occasional reboots to recover from the occasional glitch. I also do not like Lumin (and the fact that is forces you to play tracks from playlists) as much as either Linn Kazoo or Naim.

As you say, Naim cannot be used (it's not open source), but I have also found that Linn Kazoo does not work properly with Bubble UPnP server despite being in theory open source. This is a problem that appears to be acknowledged by some UPnP server providers who point to the problem lying with Kazoo's implementation of open source.  

Hmack posted:

nbpf posted:

Hmack posted:

...

Although Some people don't appear to like the Naim app, I personally would be pretty happy with any of the Linn, Naim or Auralic control apps, and would prefer them to any of the control options you would have to use with an SPDIF solution.     

Just a small precisation: you can actually use Linn Kazoo, Lumin, Bubble UPnP (but not Naim) control points with an SPDIF solution by running a UPnP server and upmpdcli (a MPD-based renderer, see https://www.lesbonscomptes.com/upmpdcli/) on the same device. This gives you a one-box solution (if the device comes with high-quality SPDIF output) or a two-box solution (if you need to add a USB->SPDIF bridge). In either case, it is a standard UPnP streaming solution. It's just that the UPnP server and the client run on the same device. If the server has access to local data, this setup gives you all the flexibility of LAN streaming (and control) while avoiding transferring large data sets over the LAN at replay time. Thus, the device running the UPnP server and the renderer does not actually need to be wired to the LAN. A wireless connection is perfectly enough.

Yes. Actually this is more or less what I do with my microRendu/Hugo set-up. I have Bubble UPnP server running on my microRendu and use the open source Lumin app on my iPad as the control point. However, it was not entirely straightforward to set up and is not 100% reliable, requiring occasional reboots to recover from the occasional glitch. I also do not like Lumin (and the fact that is forces you to play tracks from playlists) as much as either Linn Kazoo or Naim.

As you say, Naim cannot be used (it's not open source), but I have also found that Linn Kazoo does not work properly with Bubble UPnP server despite being in theory open source. This is a problem that appears to be acknowledged by some UPnP server providers who point to the problem lying with Kazoo's implementation of open source.  

I do not know the microRendu but in my setup I am not using Bubble UPnP server. My main music server is a fitPC3 running MinimServer and upmpdcli. The fitPC3 is connected (via USB->SPDIF bridge) to a Naim DAC and controlled with Kazoo or Bubble UPnP (the control point, not the server). The Lumin app also works fine but I do not like it very much.

This setup has been running very reliably since more than one year. I shutdown the fitPC3 when I go on holiday but otherwise it is on 24/7. Linn Kazoo on Android is not very stable and the app often has to be closed and restarted. On my wife's iPad, however, Kazoo runs very smoothly. Bubble UPnP (the control point) is very stable but only available for Android.  

The reason why upmpdcli cannot be controlled with the Naim app is that the Naim app is designed to only work with Naim renderers, I understand.

I also run MinimServer + upmpdcli  on a Raspberry Pi that I take with me when I am on holiday. The Pi is set up to provide a wireless access point and has a 500GB microSSD loaded with music on board. After connecting to the network with my mobile phone, I can control replay (through a portable DAC) in exactly the same way as I do at home. This system also runs very reliably. The big advantage of the Pi (over fitPC, NUC, etc.) is that it boots from the micro SD card and can be set up remotely. It makes it very easy to test different systems and setups and to make mirror copies of whole systems. 

The NDS is still one of the best streamers money can buy and this isn't likely to change. Facilities and capabilities will doubtless be revised over time to track fashion but the sheer musicality and effortless communication of the NDS will remain. If you like it for how it sounds, you have essentially decided already. If you worry about a possible replacement which might be cosmetically more to your liking, or the possibilities offered by other combinations of boxes, I think the NDS probably hasn't sold itself to you and you will need to keep looking.  

The choices are wide and endless. Something, somewhere will hit your spot. I have a lot of respect for everything Linn do and have heard pretty much everything they have to offer. It is all superb at the respective price points but it doesn't do that "balls and all", visceral stuff like Naim does.  It's the only well regarded audiophile alternative to Naim I've yet to hear which appeals.

In our house we've had HDX, HDX/XPS2, HDX-SSD/XPS2, HDX/DAC/XPS2, HDX/DAC/555PS, NDS/555PS and now NDS/555PS/555PS (both DR). We've listened to all the streamers and the US paired with NDX. Not any of the new stuff. My curiosity is presently nil. I'm more interested than ever in my music and the HiFi has essentially vanished. Before the HDX was launched we were saving for a CDS3. While I could no longer justify buying a CDS3 in the HDX, NS, US and DAC era, we both missed the last degree of transparency and organic realism which the CDS3 was famed for, and which HDX and DAC couldn't quite pull off, while being stronger in other areas. The NDS fixed this at a stroke. It was my have cake and eat it upgrade.

I use Minimserver on a NAS and Asset on another NAS to push music all over the house, including to the NDS. So far as my ears, room and system are concerned, make and spec of NAS or HDDs therein make no difference to sound quality. NAS based server does not. Ethernet cables do. Switches do. I agree that the NDS screen is rather basic but I only look at it when I update the FW. The App is the recommended interface and it's rather good now. Like you, I don't do subscription services or low res stuff. I listen to 16/44 and above. Some may say that I'm barely scratching the full capabilities of the NDS. I believe that I'm fully exploiting the only feature that counts. Each to our own.

However you go, good luck with it and don't forget to have as much fun as possible.

Harry posted:

The NDS is still one of the best streamers money can buy and this isn't likely to change. Facilities and capabilities will doubtless be revised over time to track fashion but the sheer musicality and effortless communication of the NDS will remain. If you like it for how it sounds, you have essentially decided already. If you worry about a possible replacement which might be cosmetically more to your liking, or the possibilities offered by other combinations of boxes, I think the NDS probably hasn't sold itself to you and you will need to keep looking.  

The choices are wide and endless. Something, somewhere will hit your spot. I have a lot of respect for everything Linn do and have heard pretty much everything they have to offer. It is all superb at the respective price points but it doesn't do that "balls and all", visceral stuff like Naim does.  It's the only well regarded audiophile alternative to Naim I've yet to hear which appeals.

In our house we've had HDX, HDX/XPS2, HDX-SSD/XPS2, HDX/DAC/XPS2, HDX/DAC/555PS, NDS/555PS and now NDS/555PS/555PS (both DR). We've listened to all the streamers and the US paired with NDX. Not any of the new stuff. My curiosity is presently nil. I'm more interested than ever in my music and the HiFi has essentially vanished. Before the HDX was launched we were saving for a CDS3. While I could no longer justify buying a CDS3 in the HDX, NS, US and DAC era, we both missed the last degree of transparency and organic realism which the CDS3 was famed for, and which HDX and DAC couldn't quite pull off, while being stronger in other areas. The NDS fixed this at a stroke. It was my have cake and eat it upgrade.

I use Minimserver on a NAS and Asset on another NAS to push music all over the house, including to the NDS. So far as my ears, room and system are concerned, make and spec of NAS or HDDs therein make no difference to sound quality. NAS based server does not. Ethernet cables do. Switches do. I agree that the NDS screen is rather basic but I only look at it when I update the FW. The App is the recommended interface and it's rather good now. Like you, I don't do subscription services or low res stuff. I listen to 16/44 and above. Some may say that I'm barely scratching the full capabilities of the NDS. I believe that I'm fully exploiting the only feature that counts. Each to our own.

However you go, good luck with it and don't forget to have as much fun as possible.

Thanks all for excellent food for thought,  I think Harry you have hit the nail on the head for me.  I've listened to LPs all my life so the digital era is a new welcome addition but also with so many options it is difficult to know where to begin.  I was blow away by the nds in terms of sound quality and I suppose my reservation is cost based on that I'm not sure how this is all going to fit in with my life style.  anyway thanks again to all contributions.  I will ponder some more.

If I were in your shoes Andy I'd hold fire and try to pick up one of the many used NDS's that will hit the market when the new 500 series streamer is launched later this year.... 

kevin J Carden posted:

If I were in your shoes Andy I'd hold fire and try to pick up one of the many used NDS's that will hit the market when the new 500 series streamer is launched later this year.... 

Thanks Kevin.  I had heard that rumour too.  Is there any rumours on specs for the 500 series (one can dream at least)?

AndyS posted:

Thanks Kevin.  I had heard that rumour too.  Is there any rumours on specs for the 500 series (one can dream at least)?

Depending on a market it will also stream an unlimited supply of a local tipple 

Not heard too much re specs, only that it will likely continue to use the existing 555PS (or two) and will just be a new streamer box. 

Naim's ending of CD555 manufacture is surely a clue as there is now no source component in the 500 range.

A Statement level streamer is in development. If it ever sees the light of day is another matter. I have heard nothing about a 500 level streamer until now. Where did the info on the 500 Streamer come from?

Harry posted:

A Statement level streamer is in development. If it ever sees the light of day is another matter. I have heard nothing about a 500 level streamer until now. Where did the info on the 500 Streamer come from?

A new streamer?

Both the Naim DAC and the NDS have been around for a while. New devices like the recently announced Auralic Aries G2 come with high quality USB and SPDIF outputs, offer seamless integration of local and network attached storage and run both a UPnP server and a renderer or player: they are pure transport+storage solutions, no ripping, no amplification, no moving parts.

The natural partner for such devices is a pure DAC, not a streamer. And a pure DAC connected to a device like the Aries G2 (or Raspberry Pi + Hifiberry DIGI+ Pro, Sonore microRendu, Melco, etc. depending on your budget and aesthetic preferences) is all one actually needs: no NASes in the basement, no wired connections, no USB->SPDIF converters, no ugly switches hidden in a cabinet. A simple, clean, high quality solution.

It will be interesting to see if Naim recognizes these obvious facts and comes up with something interesting in their new classical and higher range separates. Just a new streamer would be a little bit too boring!