Naim streamer

Hi Nimrod -

I advocate for a "wireless bridge" solution - plug one wifi access point (you can use a modern router for this function also, it is software selectable and very easy) into the main modem/router/switch (use as long a cable as you can with convenience to get it near the other end of the connection), and set up another identical wifi access point (this matters, as there isn't really a universal implementation and you can avoid a headache by buying two the same) near your stereo...then plug your Naim (and anything else) into this.

The wireless bridge acts functionally as a long wire between the two points and poses none of the known (and potentially very bad) problems of the "over mains" approaches.  

I have all my network "stuff" (ie NAS and other junk) in the basement of my house, and a wifi bridge to the main floor living room. More reliable with Naim gear to connect via Ethernet into the switch on the access point than to establish its own wifi connection (for some reason). Give it a go with your favourite brand of medium priced router, checking first that there is a simple "act as an access point" setting in the software. If you go with Asus and need help, let me know... Best of luck!

Regards alan

You ask about cheaper options - there certainly are options other than the ND5XS that are worth considering. But to introduce this, I should clarify that my own introduction to streaming was ND5XS, which I used with a cheap NAS (Zuxel NSA325), and after a year I was persuaded to add an additional power supply to it, the XP5XS - but I was disappointed with the very small difference the power supply made for its cost. I then learnt about the Chord Hugo DAC, and swapped the XP5XS for a Hugo - and was very pleased, a distinct improvement (some say more analogue-like: I would say perhaps just greater naturalness). At that time I was quite unhappy about the noise (acoustic) made by the NAS, and resolved to get a silent one like the QNAP - but then learnt a bit more and instead got a Mac Mini to enable me to try something different for rendering music files and free up the ND5XS, knowing that if nothing else it would make a decent NAS. That's the way I used it first (I bought a used late 2012 model, which is the last that is user-customisable, and maximised RAM and added twin 1GB SSDs). The MM is 'headless', with no monitor or keyboard. Any Mac could be used with Audirvana for trial purposes if set up optimally.

Running free Serviio UPnP server software, it was infinitely better than the noisy Zyxel, but more to the point I could then try Audirvana rendering software, which I did. I had to add an isolator between the Mac Mini's USB output and the Hugo to remove RF noise that adversely affected sound quality, but once I had done that it shone, sounding better than the ND5XS as a renderer, and the combination much better than had ND5XS with additional power supply - at less overall coat., so I wish I had known all that before I started.

Your suggested source is ND5XS + QNAP, which would cost ~£2700 +drives. A secondhand late 2012 Mac Mini with an isolator (I used Gustard U12) and Hugo 1 would be around £2000-2200, in which you can put 1 or 2 drives of any size, HDD or SSD. A new model MM - not user customisable so you would need to specify for the future upfront - would cost from maybe £2200 depending on the drives chosen.

For that the sound quality is better than the ND5XS plus XP5XS, let alone bare Nd5XS, at least to my ears -but if you search Hugo on the forum you'll find quite a few similar assessments, especially of the benefit of Hugo.

That said, it is a bit 'hands on' to set up, and although Audirvana gives excellent sound quality, its library facility is a bit limiting, especially if your metadata is less than perfect. There are another low cost hands-on setup that could be worth researching if that appeals: search on these forums for microRendu. An alternative that costs maybe £1000 more (depending on exact model chosen) but is 'turnkey'  is the Melco N1A, which like Mac Mini+Audirvana is a combined store and renderer, and which similarly can feed a DAC direct, and deals with RF internally so doesn't need an isolator, and I understand has is a choice of library control software apps. With Hugo that makes it rather more expensive than the ND5XS +QNAP (however not so with Mojo - see below).

As well as Hugo (£1400), Chord DACs include Mojo (£400) and the very new Hugo 2. Numbers of people have said the Mojo is very almost as good sounding as Hugo, though a bit limited in terms of its output connections, but they seem not to have had any problems hooking up to an amp (but if used with a computer source that inevitably will have RF noise superimposed it will still need an isolator). Mojo with Melco would be cheaper than ND5XS+QNAP. Hugo 2 costs about £1800, said to sound even better than Hugo, and adds a remote control for that Hugo lacks, very useful if you only have digital sources and decide not to bother with a preamp as it and the original Hugo can feed a power amp direct. (Some on here have found that, at least to their ears, it still sounds better through a Naim preamp because that creates the "Naim sound", which clearly feeding a power amp without the additional electronics does not.)

One significant difference between Melco or Mac Mini/Audirvana with inbuilt renderer is that your music does not need to be streamed from your store across your home network to the player (streamer), which removes any network issues from the replay process (there are frequent posts on these forums seeking help with network problems) - though you can still stream from them to other players in the house if you desire. Internet connection for downloading new music can be direct, or what I do is download to another computer then copy to the MM store. If you want online streaming services like Tidal or Qobuz, Audirvana does them (I don't know about Melco), and as with any internet connection the how good they can be depends partly on your internet connection.

Don't get me wrong, ND5XS is a nice sounding streamer, for me matching the quality of the CD player it replaced, but the added power supply was certainly not worth it, and overall I simply found that better was possible for less.

Much on these forums on all the things I have mentioned in this post.

I forgot to add that the new Naim Uniti Core can act in the same way as Melco and MM/Audirvana, feeding a DAC direct and like them not needing ethernet to stream music from your store to the DAC - however it has had a lot of teething troubles in its brief life with no clear conclusion as to how it compares to these other options in terms of sound quality, and there seem to be concerns over how it handles file metadata - again much on these forums.

"nimrodmr2p posted:

Are there any cheaper ways of getting a good result

Would I be right in thinking it is the quality of the Naim streamer and its DAC which will give me the quality I am looking for and retaining the PRaT I already have

Current system is CD5 XS, Nait XS, ProAc D1

Hi Nimrod, yes there probably are cheaper ways to get into streaming but is that what you want?

I own the ND5xs and auditioned it directly against the CD5xs through 152/155xs amps (so very close to your set up) and was unable to reliably tell the two apart. Consider that the ND5 also gives you digital internet radio. The inbuilt DAC allows you to connect any other equipment you may have with digital out (think TV/DVD etc) and there is an optional FM radio module. Even with the optional FM it is cheaper that your CD5xs. It visually matches what you have and there is no reason I can think of why it should not last at least as long as a CD player since it has no mechanical parts. It has also been upgraded in terms of firmware on a regular basis by Naim which has brought added functionality eg Spotify and Tidal. Finally it is upgradable if you desire by using an external DAC at a later date.

Regards, Mike

Thanks for the information so far

It is all very complicated and the influence on sound quality seems variable

At the moment I am thinking I will just carry on listening to CDs, I may spend £2,500 or £3,000 and not be happy

If I carry on then one question I need answering is does the brand or type of ethernet cable have any influence on sound quality

Some people will tell you that it does, but unless you have money to waste, then getting it going with ordinary well made Cat 6 cables will be absolutely fine.

best

David

nimrodmr2p posted:

Thanks for the information so far

It is all very complicated and the influence on sound quality seems variable

At the moment I am thinking I will just carry on listening to CDs, I may spend £2,500 or £3,000 and not be happy

If I carry on then one question I need answering is does the brand or type of ethernet cable have any influence on sound quality

At the spending level you intend, just stay at cd's - you of course will not enjoy the added benefits of streaming like choice via streaming provider and ease of use...., but you don't seem to be totally prepared for it. I would recommend to only move to streaming when you can make a step up from your current solution......, which would be possible with pre-loved quality stuff.

What about a combined CD/Streamer like a Uniti 2 and a used Unitiserve you can get them with a 2TB drive for about 1250 pounds now.  The two units would cost you about 2,500 but your CD/Nait Xs would off set a large chunk of that, nice and simple happy days and you still have a CD Player. If you then decide you prefer streaming you can try something else the great thing about Naim is that unless you purchase brand new you very rarely loose money when you trade.

nimrodmr2p posted:

Thanks for the information so far

It is all very complicated and the influence on sound quality seems variable

At the moment I am thinking I will just carry on listening to CDs, I may spend £2,500 or £3,000 and not be happy

If I carry on then one question I need answering is does the brand or type of ethernet cable have any influence on sound quality

Based on what I hear in my system, yes it does, but so does changing speaker cables, installing high quality switches and ensuring that the network is earthed correctly. I use AudioQuest Vodka Ethernet cables and they are super, but they cost quite a lot, and there are some others that cost huge amounts of money. All of these things can be considered as icing on the cake and they are not essential. Get the basic setup right, with something like the ND5 and a decent nas, and you can tweak later if you wish. 

nimrodmr2p posted:

Thanks for the information so far

It is all very complicated and the influence on sound quality seems variable

At the moment I am thinking I will just carry on listening to CDs, I may spend £2,500 or £3,000 and not be happy

If I carry on then one question I need answering is does the brand or type of ethernet cable have any influence on sound quality

Whilst I found that bare ND5Xs marched my former CD player for sound quality, Hugo upped the game (both with ND5XS doing the rendering, and then Audirvana). My diehard analogue fan brother-in-law grudgingly admitted that digital could indeed sound as good as analogue (and better, as no surface noise, compression etc). Later when I upgraded the DAC to something else he was quite amazed at how it now sounds, but that's another story.

Since deciding to switch to streaming I have never looked back - I ripped all my old LPs and CDs, and now buy mainly by download, or if only CD available I get that and immediately rip to my music store. The door is open also to higher resolution files than CD. Other benefits include virtually zero storage space, and ease of making backup copy of everything that can be stored elsewhere, so preserving the collection in the event of catastrophe.

As for ethernet cables, irrelevant if you use a combined store and renderer feeding direct to a DAC, whether Naim Uniti Core or Melco or Mac Mini/Audirvana or Innuos Zenith etc.

If you use a combined store and renderer feeding the DAC you have an even more critical dependency on the cable between the renderer and the DAC.  This is more critical than an Ethernet cable as it's realtime data (this is still true no matter whether that's S/Pdif or isosynchronous USB).

If you can't run Ethernet cabling generally, it is (IMO) better to plug both your NAS and Streamer into something like an AirPort Extreme and connect that wirelessly to the rest of your network.

That way you have a wired connection for "local" streaming from UPnP and the wireless is only used for metadata, transfer to the NAS (which isn't time critical) and streaming from Tidal, Spotify, Ineternet Radio.  The internet streaming is wherr you may have a problem depending your connection speed.

Just as Eloise says.  N.B. only applies if you really can't use a wired connection.

nimrodmr2p posted:

It will not be possible to easily use a cabled connection

Lots of us, myself included, started out by messing around with all sorts of WiFi or EoM workarounds, hoping for an easy fix, because installing a proper wired LAN seemed like too much hassle. OK, so it's a bit messy having to drill holes in the wall for LAN cables, but it's not really that hard, and it's cheap. My advice would be to just do it, and move on.

Huge posted:

If you use a combined store and renderer feeding the DAC you have an even more critical dependency on the cable between the renderer and the DAC.  This is more critical than an Ethernet cable as it's realtime data (this is still true no matter whether that's S/Pdif or isosynchronous USB).

That, however is no different from using an ethernet connected renderer such as when using ND5XS or NDX etc through an external DAC, whether Naim or any other brand, but without the additional variable of the network and its cabling - and whilst it needs a decent cable with decent connectors properly fitted, it needn't mean silly price exotic.

True that cable is required any time you connect to an external DAC, and just as for an Ethernet cable it doesn't have to be a silly price exotic.
However, in my experience, the effect of a less than ideal S/Pdif cable is worse than the effect of a less than ideal Ethernet cable.

N.B.  Any S/Pdif cable using RCA Phono connectors is less than ideal!

Huge posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

I have had the ND5 for a couple of years and despite what you might read on this forum it is an excellent streamer, no it isn't an NDX or an NDS but I would argue with the same amplification it is as good as a 272. I have recently added a used Chord 2Qute and it has enhanced it further.

I used an ND5 and agree it's an excellent streamer.

I then used the a 272 with the same amplification as I used with the ND5 and the 272 was a considerable improvement.

Of course it would be because with the 272  you are upgrading the preamp section in the Nait xs so its not the amplification really.

BtB, I'm not that stupid.

272 streamer -> 272 preamp -> Nait XS poweramp

ND5 XS -> 272 analogue input  -> Nait XS poweramp

I am bewildered by the various replies to my original post and am not sure what I want to do

What is clear is that there is an opportunity for Naim to cut through all this confusion and come up with an all embracing answer to streaming and produce a suitable product which I would gladly buy

nimrodmr2p posted:

I am bewildered by the various replies to my original post and am not sure what I want to do

Don't be. Your dealer offered a good suggested route. Why not go back to him, ask for a home demo (get the dealer to set it up if needed) and see how you get on. 

I think you are probably right

Thanks

Or better still if the dealer has any of the other options suggested (or another accessible dealer does) as well as the original suggested system, ask to hear them all, and then whichever one(s) sound best or seem to suit your desires best ask for a home demo.

nimrodmr2p posted:

I am bewildered by the various replies to my original post and am not sure what I want to do

What is clear is that there is an opportunity for Naim to cut through all this confusion and come up with an all embracing answer to streaming and produce a suitable product which I would gladly buy

They have: Uniti Star.

Not quite what I had in mind:

a source only device

A classic Naim CD drawer, slots are for letters not CDs

Styling and size to match existing classic components

So is what you want a CDX 2 and an NDX combined into one box?  (With the inherent compromise to the performance of both.)

Not going to happen (and most people wouldn't buy it anyway, they'd buy one or the other - for instance to add an NDX to an existing CDX system).