PMC Twenty 21, listening fatigue?

Hello Charles,

I have Totem Dreamcatchers on the end of my CD5X, 122X, 150X and FC2X.

I got these a few months ago to replace the Spendor A5s which I just couldn't get along with.

I am very happy with the Dreamcatchers, no harsh treble, nice bass and vocals and they are beautifully finished too.

I am by no means an expert but thought I would recommend them to you and no doubt the more knowledgeable members on here will be able to give you better advice.

Regards,

Alan.

Try firing them straight with zero toe in, that will reduce treble substantially. Try also reducing hard surfaces where high  frequencies will reflect. Carpets, tapestries, curtains, acoustic panels to side walls and behind listening will all help. If nothing works then change your speakers! ATC scm40a is a very forgiving speaker with no harshness that has an honest presentation like pmc if that's the sound you like.

ProAc stand mounts would be worth a shot.

HM, I think you are the first person I have ever come across who says the ATCs are forgiving speakers... ATC I believe pride themselves in their accuracy and ruthless presentation, which is why they are so popular in the professional world... and perhaps less so in the Hi-Fi world.

With regard to the PMC I found some of their smaller speakers had a slight hardness or grittiness in the treble ... not noticeable in some music, but really grated with choral music and closely recorded / compressed vocals ... and was noticeable on both a Statement and my more humble 252DR based system... I can imagine this could cause fatigue.. for me it was more irritation than fatigue.

Halloween Man posted:

Try firing them straight with zero toe in, that will reduce treble substantially. Try also reducing hard surfaces where high  frequencies will reflect. Carpets, tapestries, curtains, acoustic panels to side walls and behind listening will all help. If nothing works then change your speakers! ATC scm40a is a very forgiving speaker with no harshness that has an honest presentation like pmc if that's the sound you like.

It ought to be at six grand, way out of my league in fact 4 times what I want to spend. Any more suggestions?

Sorry I meant scm40, not the actives!

simon, you can have forgiving and accurate. If you compare scm19 with scm40, the 40s are considerably more forgiving/easier on the ear on less than perfect recordings.

the ATC pro range are perhaps more ruthless.

I am reasonably familiar with the PMC 20.21.  A friend has these and also running a nait XS2, primarily fed by PC and Audiolab MDAC+.  One observation is that they have a fairly finite sweet spot when it comes to volume level.  Too low and they're a bit uninteresting, a tiny bit too loud and they start to screech at me, though the extent of that is varied depending on what you're listening to obviously.  

I heard Russell K Red 100s a couple of weeks ago, and did not find those irritating at all.  They certainly sounded revealing while remaining sweet and easy on the ears.  They seem quite grown up, and about music rather than being an impressive speaker.  Might be worth a listen, and pretty spot on from a budget point of view.

Kudos or Neat

Halloween Man posted:

Sorry I meant scm40, not the actives!

simon, you can have forgiving and accurate. If you compare scm19 with scm40, the 40s are considerably more forgiving/easier on the ear on less than perfect recordings.

the ATC pro range are perhaps more ruthless.

I am not so sure... by being accurate they present what is there, less accurate they can gloss over some imperfections in the replay chain perhaps giving a more rounded but less accurate presentation. I choose ATC passives with my Naim amps because I like to listen into the recording and production techniques as well as musician techniques... but this will also show deficiencies or errors in the recording or replay chain... but I don't find such errors or deficiencies generally fatiguing rather more interesting or insightful. I got a taste for this many years ago from my under graduate placement with the BBC for  studio engineering at the old TV Centre in London

It seems a bit odd to only get fed up with the speakers after two and a half years - a bit like those people who take their pint back and complain that it's off when there's only an inch left in the bottom of the glass. I'd agree with the suggestion of firing the speakers more or less straight ahead - how are they angled at the moment. 

The idea of the SCM40 is curious - they need a far better system than a CD5 and Nait XS. 

The little speakers I really like the look of, thought I've never heard them, is the new ProAc Tablette 10. The size of a Linn Kan, they work close to the wall and don't cost too much. If I didn't have my SL2s I'd be demming a pair. They work best on a particular stand apparently - a Target 4 or something like that, which is now sold by Bryston. 

I tried the twenty.21 once and thought they were super, though I used the pukka PMC tubular stands. I'm pretty sure a hifi racks wooden affair is far from ideal. I'd at least borrow the proper stands and play with positioning before throwing the baby out with the bath water. 

Is this a case of excessive HF reflection in the room?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

HM, I think you are the first person I have ever come across who says the ATCs are forgiving speakers... ATC I believe pride themselves in their accuracy and ruthless presentation, which is why they are so popular in the professional world... and perhaps less so in the Hi-Fi world.

With regard to the PMC I found some of their smaller speakers had a slight hardness or grittiness in the treble ... not noticeable in some music, but really grated with choral music and closely recorded / compressed vocals ... and was noticeable on both a Statement and my more humble 252DR based system... I can imagine this could cause fatigue.. for me it was more irritation than fatigue.

I would not say the new ATCs are forgiving but their treble is not as 'hard' as the PMC. I auditioned the Twenty 5.21 twice and the Twenty5.23 and both speakers displayed a hardness in the treble that I found uncomfortable. I ended up with the the ATC SCM 11s which were as revealing as the PMCs but with a smoother and better integrated treble. I put it down to the choice of tweeter material and the unusually low crossover frequency of the PMC that caused it. Also, due to the high number of people that swear by the PMC it probably only impacts people whose hearing is sensitive at that particular frequency

Hi try the new Soendor A2 they sound so balanced and right ..... would work really well with your setup. By the way I have pmc  20.21 and can confirm they respond to the best of amplification.... they are not the easiest to drive.

Try less toe in, but failing that, try to get a demo of some Totem Arros. I use a pair in a second system and they are sublime. They are omnidirectional and work very well 6" from the back wall...

BB

Strange what we hear. I recently demoed 20/23 at home and found the treble to be much less harsh than my motive 2s. Not harsh at all in fact. I could have lived with them but found the bass a bit too much for my room on some tracks. I have listened to the 25/23s at my dealers and did notice some brightness. 

Motive sx2 has a nice balance and much better treble IMO. What speaker cables are you using and do you have jumpers for the speaker terminals? I will get round to trying TQB at some point and see how this works. Reports seem to indicate this can maybe improve upper frequencies? 

Toto15 posted:

Kudos or Neat

No clue about Kudos, but I would also look at Neat if you can't cope with PMC's treble. 

Huge posted:

Is this a case of excessive HF reflection in the room?

Yes Huge; that occurred to me - and/or nasty and over-compressed modern mastering techniques, or a mismatch somewhere in the chain. All the PMC models I've heard have sounded inherently pretty sweet to me.

Any chance that the loudspeakers have been overdriven at some time? It's possible that one or both of the crossovers has developed a fault.

Can you ask your dealer to visit and cast a critical ear, Charles?

John.

I noticed the PMC hardness with my dealer in their listening room with a Statement system... I really don't think it's about HF reflections .. my guess it's more about lack of treble resolution... certainly perhaps less resolution than I am used to with the ATC own built hf drivers. I found the balance of the new PMCs good with no undue prominences, certainly with no excessive treble, it's just what treble there was seemed to struggle digging out the finesse and detail. Listening to choral music seemed to bring an artificial effect to choral sibilence that just was not noticeable with other speaker types such as ATC, Kudos, Neat and Russell K

Charles44 posted:

Small floor standers could also be considered but say no taller than 0.8m.

The only wife critical factor I have is whatever happens any new speaker should preferably be oak although nothing is counted out. Oh yes budget circa £1500 or so.

I've been very happy with my Kudos X2s - just under .8m, available in oak, and on budget at £1500. Of course, just because they work for me doesn't mean that will for you, but something for your shortlist.

Assuming the alternate suggestions regarding placement etc do not solve your problem.

+1 for Neat. I use motive sx2 (with SU not Nait) and am very pleased with what I hear. They are also good near walls, only 0.85m tall, come in various colours and are within your budget.

DWO

Charles44 posted:

... Looking forward to suggestions.

Funny I was playing with speaker positioning this evening with my 22s (I have 21s on HiFi Rack stands elsewhere and have no complaints!). My listening room has very hard floor and walls (concrete/granite) so I use acoustic foam boards and movable foam screens (homemade). Now because the room does not act like a 'sound box' (wooden floors, voids cavities etc) the bass is really dry and fast. Shoving the speakers right in the corners can lend some fruitiness but along comes muddle too. The positioning is absolutely critical in my room. I can go from uncouth treble to slightly bland in 10degrees of movement. As I have a relatively long, not so wide room, crossing the speakers over just in front of my listening position is best 'in my room'!

dispense with the prior notions and try a few novel positions. I can effect an amazing change in my room. I listened to Yes 'Drama' 2004 remaster tonight at high volume (I love that thundering Rickenbacker bass) with zero fatigue (that should, on paper, be unlikely!) Google slap echo and comb effect, and think about solving this. There's little wrong with PMC's SEAS tweeter.

Check my forum pics for an old shot of the listening room, note the 'bolsters' stuffed with 'stuff' and the suspended wall boards plus carpet 'samples' over floor tiles, all necessary as the room is essentially bare without...

Hungryhalibut posted:

The little speakers I really like the look of, thought I've never heard them, is the new ProAc Tablette 10.

I know one forum member has recently purchased the new Proac sm100 and is delighted with them. They are in op's price range and designed to have smooth top end with more bass than tablette and are easy to drive. The member was familiar with ATC range and said he prefers the sm100 to atc. Worth an audition perhaps.

I think some of the others are right .... the toe in is very critical. I use mine with no toe. As for tweeter refinement.... I find the tweeter really good ..... cymbals shimmer and there is good detail...

Hungryhalibut posted:

It seems a bit odd to only get fed up with the speakers after two and a half years - a bit like those people who take their pint back and complain that it's off when there's only an inch left in the bottom of the glass. I'd agree with the suggestion of firing the speakers more or less straight ahead - how are they angled at the moment. 

The idea of the SCM40 is curious - they need a far better system than a CD5 and Nait XS. 

The little speakers I really like the look of, thought I've never heard them, is the new ProAc Tablette 10. The size of a Linn Kan, they work close to the wall and don't cost too much. If I didn't have my SL2s I'd be demming a pair. They work best on a particular stand apparently - a Target 4 or something like that, which is now sold by Bryston. 

I tried the twenty.21 once and thought they were super, though I used the pukka PMC tubular stands. I'm pretty sure a hifi racks wooden affair is far from ideal. I'd at least borrow the proper stands and play with positioning before throwing the baby out with the bath water. 

Mr. Hungryhalibut,

There is always a reason for just about everything, as there is for me taking time to assess the speakers. In the time I have had them I have spent a lot of time away from home -  looking after grandkids amongst other things. That and the fact that my life does not revolve around "hifi" is good enough reason and should not warrant your cynical comment  comparing me to a person who takes back and complains about their drink having drunk most of it. Not smart or funny.

To all other comments,

Thanks, I am taking these on board and am already, I think, noticing a difference perhaps from bringing the speakers closer together and firing them almost straight out. Further changes are likely to happen and I will comment later.