PMC Twenty 21, listening fatigue?

I have never used mine without speaker grills ..... perhaps this helps..

Strange.....My experience is quite the opposite. I had a pair of 20.23 and always found them lacking treble and detail. It always felt like I had to pop or unblock my ears when listening to them. Lacking detail in treble and bass. Possibly it was due to my xs2/hcdr at the time a bit underpowered I don't know. Anyway, I changed them for a pair of Aria's and that problem was solved quite nicely.

20.23 with NDX/SN2 was a very good combination to my ears.

G

If you have access to Dynaudio speakers, I would recommend an audition. They will do dynamics and yet be very refined. Might be the finest tweeter on the market!

You could try removing the links and use a cable to bridge .... my brother tried this and he thought it improved finesse.....

I have been listening to some of the speakers suggested here over the last 10 days at a well known dealer in the centre of Nottingham. Those listened to, the first 3 well run in, with brief comments are -

Russell K Red 50 - excellent little speaker but I think not quite up to my Nait XS, however surprisingly good with a nice, sweet treble and a good bass for its  very small size.

Neat Motive Sx2 - not a patch on the others I heard, I can only say "weedy". Cannot compare to my twenty.21 speakers or the best of the bunch I heard here.

ATC SCM11 - No doubt which was the best, sweet treble, steady bass and an all round neutral sound. Without a doubt the one I would buy, but see later. Highly impressive

Russell K Red 100 - Was the second best with a lot of the attributes of the SCM 11, but I could not buy it, it was huge and not that attractive to me in appearance. Not  run in either, delivered to the dealer only on Wednesday of this week.

So I was going to buy the ATC speakers subject to a home demo. I had been in touch with ATC over this last week asking about finishes available, but got no answer at all. Almost as if they don't entertain queries. I wanted an oak finish which I was not sure was done as standard, so the dealer contacted the local rep and guess what -  that finish is not done on the ATC entryic range, even for a premium. 

Over the last two weeks I have been changing the positions of my PMCs and currently seem to have a sweet spot, some five feet apart, angled in towards where we sit and they sound okay. So for the time being this is how it stays, but a home demo of the ATCs is tempting.

Thanks to all for their input.

You know when I ordered my ATC speakers I was concerned about the cherry wood veneer matching our light oak furniture. It actually looks fine and doesn't clash at all. The finish is very natural with no staining. Check out my post in system pics to view.

I would if I could find it.

Here you go:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...88#62387980001269988

Halloween Man posted:

Here you go:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...88#62387980001269988

Yes I see what you mean, the closeness in finish made me decide to see for myself. I will be borrowing the demo speakers in that finish on Monday. Then who knows, if I go for the demo speakers I may get a bit off the list price.

Thanks.

I know they are quite old but have you tried Mission 752 Freedoms?

Poggy posted:

I know they are quite old but have you tried Mission 752 Freedoms?

Funnily enough yes, a least 20 years ago with an Arcam system, they were pretty good but in a  different, bigger  room , different house, intriguing idea though.

Poggy posted:

I know they are quite old but have you tried Mission 752 Freedoms?

Old, but seriously talented.  There are speakers fetching £2k plus in today's market that I wouldn't swap them for.  I am a huge fan of these speakers, and only in the last few weeks managed to find something with similar strengths, but properly and undeniably better.  The speakers I chose are Kudos X3s, and they're actually slightly smaller than the Missions.  However, I don't think either speaker would be happy as close to the rear wall as you're suggesting unfortunately.  The original Mission 752 would be happy enough though.

Neat Motive SX2s are seriously talented. FWIW, I used to have the original Mission 752s on my olive 92/90.3 combo back in the day, really good fun if I recall. I find loudspeakers today have a lot more refinement without losing the fun factor and my SX2s certainly come under that category without ever becoming fatiguing.

If you could stretch the budget a bit or find a demo/used pair, I would recommend the ProAc Response D2. I have them close to the wall and use them with a CD5si & NAIT XS 2 and love the sound.

Unfortunately they do not come in Oak. I believe the current choices are Cherry, Ebony, Mahogany, Maple or Rosewood. 

Good luck with your search.

I have found these little pmc's are ruthlessly revealing.... I use them on my upgrade path now driven by a full 500 series system ....and they get better and better. They are kinda like modern day kans. I have never found them bright .... a little forward yes... but that is a small speaker trait if you want clarity. Try unplugging and plug back in your mains plugs and the same with speaker cables .... lastly position speakers dead ahead and at least a couple of feet from side walls.... and place speakers around 100-150mm from rear wall - keep covers on and experiment with perhaps a rug on floor .... and curtains perhaps drawn at windows. Remember some material is inherently bright .... I remember having one album that had some voice sybilence turned out this was a recording issue ..... 

Poggy posted:

I know they are quite old but have you tried Mission 752 Freedoms?

Wow that takes me back... I had a pair of these in the 90s, they were good and rocked well, but to be honest I am not sure they can hold much a candle to many modern speakers now.. and I'd be surprised if the treble resolved more than the little PMCs however ... I think many of us simply now expect more and it was here I was disappointed with the lack of resolution from the little PMCs... the performance just didn't match the hi-tec looks.

Ok ... it may be that they are not that easy to drive....the LS50 might suit you.....

I have to agree with Simon...

Back in the day I auditioned a set of Mission 770 Freedoms.  Yes they rocked well, but they sacrificed everything else to the god of dynamics - I rejected them because of a serious lack of transparency and detail.

Incidentally that's the exact opposite balance to the Celestion SL6 and SL600, which gave fantastic delicate insight to chamber music, but had never learnt to dance!

Richieroo posted:

Ok ... it may be that they are not that easy to drive....the LS50 might suit you.....

It could be so, although we were using a Statement power amp and Statement NAC with a NDS /2/555PS so I would have thought they should be able to get most of the speaker but perhaps not?

The LS50 type speakers are fine - and they are great for some content - like radio dramas and some music etc - but they are not as transparent as I like for music IMHO

LS50 really .... I have found them extremely transparent - I would say this is one kefs finest speakers of recent years...

Sorry - a thousand apologies - I was thinking of an LS5/8 or LS5/9 http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/.../reports/1983-10.pdf

I was going to buy the LS50 but the rear port and prodigious base - meant it did not match my room. But the balance could well suit you it is superbly transparent - better than the PMC 21's - it is sort of like a very dynamic LS35A..... if that makes sense, Ken Kessler described it as jaw droppingly good on the end of a big Levingston setup..... I can believe it. When I heard it it was on the end of a big cambridge integrated ... I would think it would suit Naim very well.