Turntable Advice - Novice

If all you want is to be able to spin some of your old LPs with reasonable fidelity then the Axis is a surprisingly capable deck, and pretty much fuss free in set-up and operation.  However, make sure it's working properly - the internal power supply can have problems or can fail - check the arm bearings carefully, and at the very least use a new belt.  Also check the cartridge - a new stylus may well be required.  

Sit it on a Target or Sound Organisation table (or better still an Audiotech or Archidee table), either of which can be picked up easily for very little these days and combine with an appropriate phono stage (so many to choose from for a modest amount) and you should have an effective occasional LP spinner for not much outlay.  From there you can decide whether to stick with it or to then make the bigger fiscal leap to something comprehensively better - but be prepared to spend much, much more...

I had an Axis with an Akito tonearm and a Denon 110 cart for a few good years a great deck and can be had for very reasonable prices.

If your vinyl is in the loft, check it before committing funds because lofts tend to be very unkind to vinyl, and there is a risk that at least some could be warped beyond playing or redemption.

In my view a good digital setup these days is capable of wiping the floor with vinyl in terms of sound quality, though it depends very much on the DAC, with some considered to impart a more 'analogue like' sound than others. Of course, to some people the sonic differences of vinyl that they have been accustomed to for many years renders it a better sound to their ears, while the physicality of LPs and their sleeves is something that has a very strong attraction for many (me included, though I have long since moved on).

In terms purely of sound quality the vinyl might therefore sound less good to you, but if the intent is simply to play and enjoy music that you have 'locked away' in your vinyl collection that might be a very appropriate thing to do, and I bow to Richard's assessment of the Axis in terms of its wdequacy. For anything not available as decent digital copies you could always make your own by digitising LPs as you play them  (there is a current thread running on just that topic) - so you do indeed need a turntable to do that.

Sounds like an excellent opportunity to dig out all that vinyl. If you get bitten by the bug you might also want to invest in a record cleaning machine. I got my VPI from a certain auction site at a very reasonable price.

My Klimax LP12 sits on a Quadraspire Bamboo wall shelf which is very well made and look less agricultural than the steel alternatives. My NDS certainly doesn't wipe the floor with my LP12 and properly set up, perhaps with a new belt and an oil change you might be pleasantly surprised what the Axis can do. Sounds like it won't be a huge investment either

Properly  set up Ariston RD80s and 11s can sound good too and don't cost a fortune.

Innocent Bystander posted:

In my view a good digital setup these days is capable of wiping the floor with vinyl in terms of sound quality, though it depends very much on the DAC,

This is not an experience i would agree with, having visited #Cymbiosis on the Kudos open day, the analogue demo was far superior to the digital demo. However, you have to spend an awful lot on Vinyl to beat digital. My PT1 sounds far better than my Unitiqte, however the unitiqte is Naim's starting streamer.

Innocent Bystander posted:

In my view a good digital setup these days is capable of wiping the floor with vinyl in terms of sound quality (1), though it depends very much on the DAC, with some considered to impart a more 'analogue like' sound than others. Of course, to some people the sonic differences of vinyl that they have been accustomed to for many years renders it a better sound to their ears (2), while the physicality of LPs and their sleeves is something that has a very strong attraction for many (me included, though I have long since moved on).

 

1 This is a gross exaggeration and generalisation, even if you do think digital is superior.

2. Wow, you could hardly get more patronising!

Your general views on the digital-vinyl debate is hardly relevant to the OP's question, which is about two specific sources - why be provocative?

Clive

Cdb posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

In my view a good digital setup these days is capable of wiping the floor with vinyl in terms of sound quality (1), though it depends very much on the DAC, with some considered to impart a more 'analogue like' sound than others. Of course, to some people the sonic differences of vinyl that they have been accustomed to for many years renders it a better sound to their ears (2), while the physicality of LPs and their sleeves is something that has a very strong attraction for many (me included, though I have long since moved on).

 

1 This is a gross exaggeration and generalisation, even if you do think digital is superior.

2. Wow, you could hardly get more patronising!

Your general views on the digital-vinyl debate is hardly relevant to the OP's question, which is about two specific sources - why be provocative?

Clive

I think I made clear that I was stating my view, and I certainly did not intend it to be patronising, and apologise unreservedly to the OP if he/she felt it to be so.

To me the noise floor of vinyl can be intrusive in very quiet passages even with the best disks I have heard, as indeed can be the effect of the almost inevitable additional defects and damage, however minor. Add to that the compressed dynamic range and vinyl is compromised regardless of how good the playing equipment and additional amplification may be. That does not mean it need sound bad, and it certainly doesn't mean it is unenjoyable, and I respect others' personal choice in playing vinyl -  but the OP did wonder if the proposed source would be as good as the NDS playing, and whilst I cannot vouch for the NDS I ventured an opinion based on my experience. 

I leave it to the OP to judge whether my contribution is helpful or not.

As Ravenswood suggested; you might want to factor a record cleaning machine into the expenditure equation. I hope that the loft has been kind to your collection. Temperature and humidity extremes can inevitably cause problems for vinyl.

Be warned - if you get the vinyl bug badly enough; things can get expensive, but as Richard stated, there's now't wrong with a Linn Axis as long as it's in good order and working to spec.

It's a strange old business about vinyl versus digital. I suppose it's simple proof that we all hear and listen differently because some audiophiles 'get' the sound of vinyl, and some do not. A Rega RP1 with it's £26 Audio Technica sourced MM cartridge does something in terms of musical engagement for me that I don't hear from the very best high-resolution digital systems.

Good luck.

John.

djh1697 posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

In my view a good digital setup these days is capable of wiping the floor with vinyl in terms of sound quality, though it depends very much on the DAC,

This is not an experience i would agree with, having visited #Cymbiosis on the Kudos open day, the analogue demo was far superior to the digital demo. However, you have to spend an awful lot on Vinyl to beat digital. My PT1 sounds far better than my Unitiqte, however the unitiqte is Naim's starting streamer.

I couldn't agree more - running an NDS/555DR alongside my LP12 Klimax I've yet to experience said floor wiping experience and I certainly find the LP12 less fatiguing during extended listening. Room for both for me including a restored Revox B77 and a NAT01. 

When CD first appeared I tried to like it but couldn't, remaining very much in the analogue is best camp. Some years later CD players had improved and it was possible to get something that sounded good - but quite ifferent from vinyl - and for quite a few years I used both side by side. I could recognise some audible merits of both. Eventually I found that a lot of music I liked ceased to be sold in LP format, and I simply stopped buying vinyl (but still played it). Then I ripped all my vinyl to CD, because it was deteriorating, and the cost of replacement cartridge every 2 or 3 years was something I could do without, and no way could I consider the cost of top end Linn based source. Then I switched to streaming. All the while my brother-in-law with a Linn Sondek maintained that vinyl as better than digital, and we would play things to each other on our different systems and sometimes each conceded that the other was right in a way - but each had particular merits. And then I changed my DAC to Hugo, and my brother in law couldn't believe it, saying that now it really did sound as good. Then I changed to Dave. 

However, the debate about digital vs vinyl is perhaps too much of a digression in this thread, and I don't mean to hijack it - overall it is very much down to the actual sources used and the preferences of the individual, and of course as with anything in music, if you as an iddividual like it then it is good, regardless of others' opinions - the difficulty, of course, is if you have to spend money to be able to find that out.

Cdb posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

In my view a good digital setup these days is capable of wiping the floor with vinyl in terms of sound quality (1), though it depends very much on the DAC, with some considered to impart a more 'analogue like' sound than others. Of course, to some people the sonic differences of vinyl that they have been accustomed to for many years renders it a better sound to their ears (2), while the physicality of LPs and their sleeves is something that has a very strong attraction for many (me included, though I have long since moved on).

 

1 This is a gross exaggeration and generalisation, even if you do think digital is superior.

2. Wow, you could hardly get more patronising!

Your general views on the digital-vinyl debate is hardly relevant to the OP's question, which is about two specific sources - why be provocative?

Clive

my sme 20 /2 sme5 / kiseki blue ns( 15k) is a big step better than my nds/555 dr / unitserve uptone js2 ps( 22k). The best digital, even full stack dcs, can't compete with a full lp12, sme turntable or big vpi .  Even, The big mega bucks turntables ( 50/200k) are miles away in sound quality from the best digital. Miles away....

In the case of CDI, putting his lp12 back to service is a very good idea!  Go on CDI, don't look back!  vinyl is not dead and digital can struggle a few years more.

hi CDI -- in addition to the tables Richard listed above, you can also plop the Axis on a plain ol' Ikea Lack. easy!

as for the phono stage, in my experience, it's best to think of the cartridge and phono stage as a single entity -- if you go with a Dynavector cartridge, try their P75 phono stage, if you go for a Linn Adikt cart., then i'd consider the Lejonklou phono stage that's made for the Adikt, and so on and so forth.

what cartridge(s) did you have in mind?

I'll be honest and say I do struggle to beat my NDS/555dr generally speaking with the majority of mainstream vinyl recordings however the quality vinyl pressings give something the NDS can't. 

I am running a Gyro SE with SME IV and Ortofon Quintet Bronze into a Rega Aria however I have some pretty average connecting cables so I'm sure I will get a big improvement when I get round to upgrading these.

Drewy posted:

I'll be honest and say I do struggle to beat my NDS/555dr generally speaking with the majority of mainstream vinyl recordings however the quality vinyl pressings give something the NDS can't. 

I am running a Gyro SE with SME IV and Ortofon Quintet Bronze into a Rega Aria however I have some pretty average connecting cables so I'm sure I will get a big improvement when I get round to upgrading these.

i am quite sure that something like a naim superline/ hicap, lyra delos cartridge, with your gyrodeck se / sme4 will outperform easily the nds/ 555 dr.   A (around) 8/10k turntable/arm/phono/ cartridge should outperform nds/555 dr.    I would improve a little your cartridge/phono combo ...  and check perhaps the motor of the gyro se.

Thanks for all the replies, I guess I better dig out the old vinyl before splashing any cash - some went to uni with me many years ago and will be in a poor state from memory 

I also have access to a vast collection of pristine condition classical vinyl going back many decades - this is in another league to my 300 or so records in the loft - I'm fancying tying some of this as well

Richards advise regarding a table has paid off - I have found a target spiked feet / shelf table and also a target turntable wall shelf which is even better?

Keler Pierre posted:

Drewy posted:

I'll be honest and say I do struggle to beat my NDS/555dr generally speaking with the majority of mainstream vinyl recordings however the quality vinyl pressings give something the NDS can't. 

I am running a Gyro SE with SME IV and Ortofon Quintet Bronze into a Rega Aria however I have some pretty average connecting cables so I'm sure I will get a big improvement when I get round to upgrading these.

i am quite sure that something like a naim superline/ hicap, lyra delos cartridge, with your gyrodeck se / sme4 will outperform easily the nds/ 555 dr.   A (around) 8/10k turntable/arm/phono/ cartridge should outperform nds/555 dr.    I would improve a little your cartridge/phono combo ...  and check perhaps the motor of the gyro se.

I have a hicap dr in a box doing nothing here, I don't know why. 

I have been tempted to look at the Superline but the Aria is very good. The weak link is the cables either side of the Aria. I'm using a cheap £40 tonearm cable and and old Chord Solid interconnect i found in the bottom of the drawer. As I have already purchased a 552 this year I'm not spending any more till next year.

with high quality pressings it beats the NDS easily. My latest purchase was the Sgt Peppers re release and it's blooming lovely.

The point I was making is a lot of your mainstream popular bands sound better on digital than modern vinyl. I love Stereophonics for example but I never listen to them on vinyl because the quality is so poor, its digital every time for them. 

It all depends on what you want to listen to at the end of the day.

I omitted to add that in the vinyl vs digital debate the mastering can be very significant - and that is true of digital vs digital, and not just different resolutions: this  was brought home to me several years ago when I found two apparently identical CDs that sounded quite different, the only discernible difference on close scrutiny and so clue to possibly different mastering was made in Germany the other in UK. And upon finding that I do recall thinking if there is that much difference between two CDs, what hope comparing LP and CD, which almost certainly will have been mastered differently.

You'll need a phonostage as well as the Lazarus-like Axis. A Naim Stageline should be good from your NAC252's powered Aux2 socket.

Drewy posted:

Keler Pierre posted:

Drewy posted:

I'll be honest and say I do struggle to beat my NDS/555dr generally speaking with the majority of mainstream vinyl recordings however the quality vinyl pressings give something the NDS can't. 

I am running a Gyro SE with SME IV and Ortofon Quintet Bronze into a Rega Aria however I have some pretty average connecting cables so I'm sure I will get a big improvement when I get round to upgrading these.

i am quite sure that something like a naim superline/ hicap, lyra delos cartridge, with your gyrodeck se / sme4 will outperform easily the nds/ 555 dr.   A (around) 8/10k turntable/arm/phono/ cartridge should outperform nds/555 dr.    I would improve a little your cartridge/phono combo ...  and check perhaps the motor of the gyro se.

I have a hicap dr in a box doing nothing here, I don't know why. 

I have been tempted to look at the Superline but the Aria is very good. The weak link is the cables either side of the Aria. I'm using a cheap £40 tonearm cable and and old Chord Solid interconnect i found in the bottom of the drawer. As I have already purchased a 552 this year I'm not spending any more till next year.

with high quality pressings it beats the NDS easily. My latest purchase was the Sgt Peppers re release and it's blooming lovely.

The point I was making is a lot of your mainstream popular bands sound better on digital than modern vinyl. I love Stereophonics for example but I never listen to them on vinyl because the quality is so poor, its digital every time for them. 

It all depends on what you want to listen to at the end of the day.

if you compare with modern cheap vinyls, no problem, hirez files are better with your nds. I have nds too.   Modern lps are poor lps made from cds transfer. But i you purchase analogue production or mobile fidelity ones, you are in heaven world!

For me the comparison is finally without object: i listen to modern high rez files or ripped modern cds ( music after the 90's)  on my nds and on my turntable lps from analog years  ( original ones or high quality remastered). 

Keler Pierre posted:

Drewy posted:

Keler Pierre posted:

Drewy posted:

I'll be honest and say I do struggle to beat my NDS/555dr generally speaking with the majority of mainstream vinyl recordings however the quality vinyl pressings give something the NDS can't. 

I am running a Gyro SE with SME IV and Ortofon Quintet Bronze into a Rega Aria however I have some pretty average connecting cables so I'm sure I will get a big improvement when I get round to upgrading these.

i am quite sure that something like a naim superline/ hicap, lyra delos cartridge, with your gyrodeck se / sme4 will outperform easily the nds/ 555 dr.   A (around) 8/10k turntable/arm/phono/ cartridge should outperform nds/555 dr.    I would improve a little your cartridge/phono combo ...  and check perhaps the motor of the gyro se.

I have a hicap dr in a box doing nothing here, I don't know why. 

I have been tempted to look at the Superline but the Aria is very good. The weak link is the cables either side of the Aria. I'm using a cheap £40 tonearm cable and and old Chord Solid interconnect i found in the bottom of the drawer. As I have already purchased a 552 this year I'm not spending any more till next year.

with high quality pressings it beats the NDS easily. My latest purchase was the Sgt Peppers re release and it's blooming lovely.

The point I was making is a lot of your mainstream popular bands sound better on digital than modern vinyl. I love Stereophonics for example but I never listen to them on vinyl because the quality is so poor, its digital every time for them. 

It all depends on what you want to listen to at the end of the day.

if you compare with modern cheap vinyls, no problem, hirez files are better with your nds. I have nds too.   Modern lps are poor lps made from cds transfer. But i you purchase analogue production or mobile fidelity ones, you are in heaven world!

For me the comparison is finally without object: i listen to modern high rez files or ripped modern cds ( music after the 90's)  on my nds and on my turntable lps from analog years  ( original ones or high quality remastered). 

Yes that's totally correct and people venturing into vinyl need to know that. You kind of need to know what you're doing or it's a sometimes huge waste of money. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

I omitted to add that in the vinyl vs digital debate the mastering can be very significant - and that is true of digital vs digital, and not just different resolutions: this  was brought home to me several years ago when I found two apparently identical CDs that sounded quite different, the only discernible difference on close scrutiny and so clue to possibly different mastering was made in Germany the other in UK. And upon finding that I do recall thinking if there is that much difference between two CDs, what hope comparing LP and CD, which almost certainly will have been mastered differently.

without comparing the same album on digital vs lp, cd player or streamer vs turntable, if you compare the sound of the best digital transfer on high quality digital player, the sound of the same quality turntable for a good mastered and recorded lp is a lot better still. Perhaps in a few years , digital will be able to compete with a turntable/ analog lp sound.  I was not comparing digital/ analog for a same album, but in general speaking of sound quality optimum level quality.