Tour de France 2017

Brilliant result for Peter Sagan.....just so happy for him also he's going to be a daddy.

Tabby cat posted:

Brilliant result for Peter Sagan

I wish he'd been far enough ahead to pull a wheelie over the finish line. Maybe one of these days.

joerand posted:

Tabby cat posted:

Brilliant result for Peter Sagan

I wish he'd been far enough ahead to pull a wheelie over the finish line. Maybe one of these days.

Well, maybe an elbow-ie over the finishing line........................... 

I blame his hair.

joerand posted:

Tabby cat posted:

Brilliant result for Peter Sagan

I wish he'd been far enough ahead to pull a wheelie over the finish line. Maybe one of these days.

 Well it won’t be in this year’s tour.

 Being aggressive in the sprint is one thing, but putting another rider into the barriers is a bit over the top.

I agree, I watched it live and saw all the replays several times over. Everyone was being a bit cagey about Sagan but it looked clear as day a deliberate move and elbow flick to me from the off. Bit of a Vettel moment.

I'm not surprised by the end result but am surprised it came after an appeal.

Roger Hammond claimed Sagan caused the crash at about 1k to go.

Lotto Soudal manager Marc Sergeant claimed Sagan was elbowing Griepel yesterday during an  intermittent sprint.

I thought Sagan got railroaded.   I would have done the same thing if I had been him.  How smart is it to send the top rider in the world home?   If that is the answer what is the question?   Just does not seem right to me.    He had a choice to hold his position or go left into the other rider.  

I am not so clear on the Sagan case. And I found the handling by the jury strange. You are not recalling a penalty after a claim. The tour will survive it.

Skip posted:

I thought Sagan got railroaded.   I would have done the same thing if I had been him.  How smart is it to send the top rider in the world home?   If that is the answer what is the question?   Just does not seem right to me.    He had a choice to hold his position or go left into the other rider.  

Not as far as I could see it. Sagan could have held his line and been ok (look at the space between Sagan and the other riders in the above picture). He moved to the right, squeezing Cavendish and then deliberately threw out his right elbow. Cavendish had no option but to crash. It was terrible and deliberate. This cannot be defended.

The overhead pictures  are pretty damned clear.

I'm not so sure myself. I think he was at fault but actually the elbow flicks out after Cav was already on the way down from the contact and running out of road. Does the elbow even hit him?

As Chris Boardman said on ITV4 others in a bunch sprint will do similar or worse in terms of contact, much bigger swerves sometimes, so really Sagan was penalised for the consequences of his movement rather than just the action. Cav was also heading up a pretty narrow slot Cav has been guilty of much the same himself a fair few times I reckon, as have most sprinters. It is a contact sport!

Should have been point and position penalties for me (a 'yellow card') not DQ. Nothing to do with who he is either.

 Shame he is out though because he is ridiculously talented and utterly unique.

Still, we move on. Intriguing stage in prospect today. Might be Thomas's last in yeloow and Froome's first?

Bruce

I'm a fan of both sprinters. No doubt Sagan threw an elbow, but that seems common in such jostling situations. I think Cav tried to squeeze himself through a lane that didn't exist.  In hindsight, probably not a wise move on Cav's part, but he had no other options at that point in the sprint. I have to wonder what it must feel like to have your jaw run over by another cyclist.

I thought Cavendish was very considered with what he said on post - race interview.

I liked his comments about Sagan being a friend and appreciated Sagans visit after the stage but would like to ask about the elbow in private with him.

Joe sums it up nicely on his posting above for me

Cav did say things happen- that's racing !

Shame 2 great riders gone.....but still so much more to come.

The TDF is never dull

Tabby cat posted:

The TDF is never dull

Indeed, never dull. A large window (or maybe void) has now been opened for riders in the sprint stages. We'll see if Kittel and Greipel can capitalize or whether some younger rider will come to the fore and make his mark.

Gutted that my 2 favourite riders are out - I think exclusion from the Green Jersey competition would have been plenty severe enough for Sagan.

I'd be happy rooting for Geraint Jones but you just know he'll be relegated to domestique  duties when the GC stages kick in - probably  from today. Really miss Jens Voigt - Thomas De Ghent hasn't quite got it for me.

This is a TdF crash incident that will be discussed and argued for years to come...

Personally i though it was a yet another fairly typical Bull Headed stampede race-sprint incident which was more accidental on the part of Sagan, and which resulted in the crashing out of not just Mark Cavendish, but also John Degenkolb [Trek], and Ben Swift  [UAE Emirates] who were unable to avoid Cav before somersaulting right over their handlebars - would be interesting to hear their perspectives as they may of had a very good view of what and how everything transpired up to the crash.

Penalised for the consequences - looks like the UCI have made an example of Sagan in an attempt to calm down future sprint  aggression [fat chance!] and does look to me that Sagan had [in the heat of the moment] erred in an over defensive way but not in an attempt to intentionally cause a crash. He should have been penalised for position and points, but thrown out the Tour seems a bit harsh. [ IMO ]

Debs

Good job Fabio...

Stage 7 - doesn't get any closer than that does it? Appeared a dead heat by any pictures shown on NBCSN. There's a great deal of hi-tech at the Tour. Would have been nice to see the pics used by the judges. They ought to be able to make those available to the broadcasters, otherwise it appeared an arbitrary decision. I heard in interviews that the difference was 5-mm or 3-thoushandths of a second. If the organizers can make that determination they should also make public the basis for their decision. Maybe folks in Europe see more than we do in the US.

Congrats to both Kittel and Boasson Hagen for an incredible finish.

joerand posted:

 I heard in interviews that the difference was 5-mm or 3-thoushandths of a second.

I haven't seen it yet (I have the highlights programme on series record), but maybe that's an argument for using 28mm tyres then

Phew, a breathless stage, and again decided by the width of a wheel. Gripping stuff.

Goodbye Quintana and Contador in all likelihood. Goodbye Porte-horrible crash and a broken hip I believe. Big shame. How on earth Dan Martin got up again and limited his losses beats me. Bet he hurts today.

Froome managed to miss the carnage and looked mighty. Does anyone else have a chance if stays upright? How do we feel about Aru attacking when Froome had a mechanical? Certainly the majority in the lead group shut it down very fast.

Next summit finish Weds I think. The Tour is never dull.

Bruce

Really enjoyed yesterday's stage.Cant remember such an exciting first week of the Tour.

Shame Porte crashed out on that awful descent.Nice guy shame his seasons goal is over for another year.Looking good for Froome but still loads of racing to come.....

Looks like with yesterday's stage the position of Froome has become so strong, nobody will be able to beat him anymore...

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

How do we feel about Aru attacking when Froome had a mechanical?

The Tour is a race, a sporting event, a competition. Do you want to win or be a nice guy? (we know where nice guys finish). Etiquette is great at the dinner table, sportsmanship more the order in competition. A mechanical is like any other mishap of the race and I wouldn't consider it unsporting to attack, just that history says you shouldn't. Maybe time to rewrite the books.

Natural breaks are another good place to attack. Maybe the other guy "overhydrated" or drank too much coffee. Maybe I hydrated just right, eschewed caffeine, or have a bigger bladder? All part of the competition isn't it?

If I were a viable contender at that point I'd have seized the moment to attack like Aru, then waited for the team director to call me off if he so chose. It might serve the Tour well to dispense with some aspects of long-held etiquette and turn this back into a true race; otherwise we can hand Froome a courtesy yellow jersey stoppage anytime he is in a crash, has a mechanical, or has to take a piss.

Who would win sans etiquette? Maybe not the best rider. Maybe it would be the most fortunate rider. No doubt though, it would be the rider able to complete the race in the least amount of time.

And what a different competition it would be if they dispensed with radio communication. Food for thought.

I agree that stage 9 was tremendous viewing. The descent from the Mont du Chat was particularly scary given the speeds. The same descent was used in this year's Dauphiné and just watching it on TV was making me feel a bit sick. I found myself leaning into each bend with the camera motorcycle.

Dan Martin said as he was on his cool down that the organisers got what they wanted. But the accidents only happened because the riders pushed the risk boundaries just that bit too far. Porte's crash was terrifying, but surely that was just because he misjudged the bend, went onto the grass etc., but I cannot work out why his bike went left yet he skidded to the right across the road. 

And then there was Rigoberto Uran. It looked like his derailleur hanger was snapped by the foot of either Porte or Martin, forcing him to ride out the last 11km in top gear. And he won the stage too by a tyre's width. 

And as for G, I didn't see the incident but saw him sat on the road with a broken collarbone. 

I don't think we can say yet that Froome has got it sewn up. IIRC Aru is only 12 (or 14) seconds down.

spectacular bike racing. J'aime le Tour. 

joerand posted:

 

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

How do we feel about Aru attacking when Froome had a mechanical?

The Tour is a race, a sporting event, a competition. Do you want to win or be a nice guy? (we know where nice guys finish). Etiquette is great at the dinner table, sportsmanship more the order in competition. A mechanical is like any other mishap of the race and I wouldn't consider it unsporting to attack, just that history says you shouldn't. Maybe time to rewrite the books.

Natural breaks are another good place to attack. Maybe the other guy "overhydrated" or drank too much coffee. Maybe I hydrated just right, eschewed caffeine, or have a bigger bladder? All part of the competition isn't it?

If I were a viable contender at that point I'd have seized the moment to attack like Aru, then waited for the team director to call me off if he so chose. It might serve the Tour well to dispense with some aspects of long-held etiquette and turn this back into a true race; otherwise we can hand Froome a courtesy yellow jersey stoppage anytime he is in a crash, has a mechanical, or has to take a piss.

Who would win sans etiquette? Maybe not the best rider. Maybe it would be the most fortunate rider. No doubt though, it would be the rider able to complete the race in the least amount of time.

And what a different competition it would be if they dispensed with radio communication. Food for thought.

I think pausing/stopping the race for mechanicals is a bit silly. The bike is part of the equation. If you choose complex electronic gears for some sort of advantage, then there is some risk. Lightweight components? Risk of failure. This especially applies to tyres. Lightweight tyres come with the increased risk of puncture. It's a decision that the team and riders make. Let them live with the consequences.

On a related matter, I'm always surprised at how much the mechanics seem to fiddle overnight with bikes that are perfectly fine. For a 3000km tour, the bike should require the chain wiped down and oiled (not the other way round as is the current fashion where all the newly applied oil gets wiped off the chain before it is used) and the tyres inspected and pumped up. That's it. The wheels and gearing also might get swapped out for each type of stage, I guess. Pressure washers should NOT be allowed anywhere near the bikes. The team shouldn't even own one.

I wonder what up and coming young riders think when they compare the behaviour of Aru and Quintana against that of Ritchie Porte, Froom and others that retain a strong sense of sportsmanship. Winning at all costs smacks of German athletes in the 1930's. Winky and Joe Rand, you can keep it!

Stu