Tour de France 2017

winkyincanada posted:

joerand posted:

 

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

How do we feel about Aru attacking when Froome had a mechanical?

The Tour is a race, a sporting event, a competition. Do you want to win or be a nice guy? (we know where nice guys finish). Etiquette is great at the dinner table, sportsmanship more the order in competition. A mechanical is like any other mishap of the race and I wouldn't consider it unsporting to attack, just that history says you shouldn't. Maybe time to rewrite the books.

Natural breaks are another good place to attack. Maybe the other guy "overhydrated" or drank too much coffee. Maybe I hydrated just right, eschewed caffeine, or have a bigger bladder? All part of the competition isn't it?

If I were a viable contender at that point I'd have seized the moment to attack like Aru, then waited for the team director to call me off if he so chose. It might serve the Tour well to dispense with some aspects of long-held etiquette and turn this back into a true race; otherwise we can hand Froome a courtesy yellow jersey stoppage anytime he is in a crash, has a mechanical, or has to take a piss.

Who would win sans etiquette? Maybe not the best rider. Maybe it would be the most fortunate rider. No doubt though, it would be the rider able to complete the race in the least amount of time.

And what a different competition it would be if they dispensed with radio communication. Food for thought.

I think pausing/stopping the race for mechanicals is a bit silly. The bike is part of the equation. If you choose complex electronic gears for some sort of advantage, then there is some risk. Lightweight components? Risk of failure. This especially applies to tyres. Lightweight tyres come with the increased risk of puncture. It's a decision that the team and riders make. Let them live with the consequences.

 

The race wasn’t paused or stopped, it never is when somebody has a mechanical.

If the group containing the overall contenders is riding tempo, when a rider has a mechanical, as a rule nobody goes on the attack, the group continues to ride tempo or slows a little to enable the rider with the mechanical to catch up. Nothing silly in that.

If Froome had had a mechanical the other day, when Aru was on the attack, Aru would have carried on at maximum speed and that would have been deemed, totally in order.

Aru’s attack was doomed to failure, firstly it was a long way from the finish, on the penultimate climb (I think). Plus nobody else was prepared to ride, Quintana rode up alongside Aru then pulled off to the rigtht hand side of the road, indicating he wasn’t going to ride, Ritchie Port told him he wasn’t going to ride.

I like the idea that they give the leader chance to catch back up. It's great sportsmanship, they have a lot of respect for each other. You can see Aru is very keen to win though which is good, I'm sure his time will come.

As for the mechanical problems. If I have a 100 mile sportive coming up I leave my bike well alone apart from cleaning and oiling the chain. Fiddling with a bike that's running nicely is asking for trouble. The top do the range groupsets such as the Shimano Dura Ace are normally very reliable and bulletproof. Mine certainly is, you get what you pay for. 

fatcat posted:

winkyincanada posted:

joerand posted:

 

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

How do we feel about Aru attacking when Froome had a mechanical?

The Tour is a race, a sporting event, a competition. Do you want to win or be a nice guy? (we know where nice guys finish). Etiquette is great at the dinner table, sportsmanship more the order in competition. A mechanical is like any other mishap of the race and I wouldn't consider it unsporting to attack, just that history says you shouldn't. Maybe time to rewrite the books.

Natural breaks are another good place to attack. Maybe the other guy "overhydrated" or drank too much coffee. Maybe I hydrated just right, eschewed caffeine, or have a bigger bladder? All part of the competition isn't it?

If I were a viable contender at that point I'd have seized the moment to attack like Aru, then waited for the team director to call me off if he so chose. It might serve the Tour well to dispense with some aspects of long-held etiquette and turn this back into a true race; otherwise we can hand Froome a courtesy yellow jersey stoppage anytime he is in a crash, has a mechanical, or has to take a piss.

Who would win sans etiquette? Maybe not the best rider. Maybe it would be the most fortunate rider. No doubt though, it would be the rider able to complete the race in the least amount of time.

And what a different competition it would be if they dispensed with radio communication. Food for thought.

I think pausing/stopping the race for mechanicals is a bit silly. The bike is part of the equation. If you choose complex electronic gears for some sort of advantage, then there is some risk. Lightweight components? Risk of failure. This especially applies to tyres. Lightweight tyres come with the increased risk of puncture. It's a decision that the team and riders make. Let them live with the consequences.

 

The race wasn’t paused or stopped, it never is when somebody has a mechanical.

If the group containing the overall contenders is riding tempo, when a rider has a mechanical, as a rule nobody goes on the attack, the group continues to ride tempo or slows a little to enable the rider with the mechanical to catch up. Nothing silly in that.

If Froome had had a mechanical the other day, when Aru was on the attack, Aru would have carried on at maximum speed and that would have been deemed, totally in order.

Aru’s attack was doomed to failure, firstly it was a long way from the finish, on the penultimate climb (I think). Plus nobody else was prepared to ride, Quintana rode up alongside Aru then pulled off to the rigtht hand side of the road, indicating he wasn’t going to ride, Ritchie Port told him he wasn’t going to ride.

 

I know they don't literally stop the race. I was speaking figuratively. I guess I should have worded it differently. I know how it works. I just don't agree with it. It's called racing for a reason. The whole "gentleman's agreement" is too vague. All part of the sport, though. I don't lose any sleep over it.

Drewy posted:

I like the idea that they give the leader chance to catch back up. It's great sportsmanship, they have a lot of respect for each other. You can see Aru is very keen to win though which is good, I'm sure his time will come.

As for the mechanical problems. If I have a 100 mile sportive coming up I leave my bike well alone apart from cleaning and oiling the chain. Fiddling with a bike that's running nicely is asking for trouble. The top do the range groupsets such as the Shimano Dura Ace are normally very reliable and bulletproof. Mine certainly is, you get what you pay for. 

We'll agree to differ, I guess.

Yes, the top-line gear is very reliable, which makes me wonder if the mechanics don't tinker too much. Breaking what is not broken, that sort of thing. I'm always most expectant of a breakdown on the first ride after a professional mechanic has touched my bike. A bit nervous if I did something to it myself. And completely relaxed if I have have simply been ignoring maintenance for ages. (What's a "mile"?)

I think the 'respect the jersey' is distinctive for cycling and a good thing. Might be a bit of an anachronism but I think it adds a dimension to the race that no other sport really has, and is a nod to history that is a big part of cycling culture.

Sure does not happen in F1.

Not unique to protecting the leader either, Wiggins in yellow himself neutralised the race in 2012 after an incident where a number of riders had punctures due to tacks on the road.

I'm ambivalent re race radios. I think it is done, not sure could be turned back. I guess it adds a different dimension and complexity on the road. Maybe not always made it more exciting though.

Bruce

winkyincanada posted:

Drewy posted:

I like the idea that they give the leader chance to catch back up. It's great sportsmanship, they have a lot of respect for each other. You can see Aru is very keen to win though which is good, I'm sure his time will come.

As for the mechanical problems. If I have a 100 mile sportive coming up I leave my bike well alone apart from cleaning and oiling the chain. Fiddling with a bike that's running nicely is asking for trouble. The top do the range groupsets such as the Shimano Dura Ace are normally very reliable and bulletproof. Mine certainly is, you get what you pay for. 

We'll agree to differ, I guess.

Yes, the top-line gear is very reliable, which makes me wonder if the mechanics don't tinker too much. Breaking what is not broken, that sort of thing. I'm always most expectant of a breakdown on the first ride after a professional mechanic has touched my bike. A bit nervous if I did something to it myself. And completely relaxed if I have have simply been ignoring maintenance for ages. (What's a "mile"?)

I see that as agreeing with each other. We're basically saying the same thing.

I still think folks are confusing etiquette with sportsmanship. The former is polite behavior in society, the latter is graciousness in winning or losing (i.e., shaking hands with your opponent at the end of the day). I find nothing unsporting about attacking during a mechanical knowing that somewhere down the line you may well be victim of the same happenstance. As Winky said mechanicals are all part of the equation and the bikes themselves (and how teams decide to maintain or configure them for a given stage) are as much a part of the competition as is the rider.

Look back at the historical Tour, when riders carried tubes on their backs, did their own repairs, and possibly had to seek out local smiths along the route to affect repairs. The entire point of a "race" is to get from point A to point B as fast as possible within the rules. You can break with etiquette and still play within the rules. Use your cunning.

I find the Tour with all its ensconced etiquette, neutral service cars, and radio communication has become more a theatrical drama for TV masses than a true race. I don't want to feel warm and fuzzy about who kowtowed to the yellow jersey at the end of a stage struck with mishap. I want to see who will seize the moment, vanquish, and finish in the shortest time. Traditions and etiquette are great if you want to view the Tour in a comfort bubble and find your expected results. I'd like to see this thing laid wide open and find out what Froome is truly made of, especially now that he's lost his wingman Thomas.

Whatever is right or fair / sportsmanship, etiquette ...

I think that Aru has lost a lot of credits. It was a strategically a bad move, and it will cost him significant time and energy to rebuild his position in the group. Its much more likely now that he is on his own on difficult moments.

loyalty = gone.

I miss mister Sagan, my loyalty to the tour is quite gone too.

Todays stage looks like it could shake-up the GC some more:

Perhaps Contador will give up on his GC plans, and go all out for a stage win? : )

Debs

I hope we will see some heroic fight. I am fearing a bit a Sky dominated ride as many of Froomes contenders are out or far behind....

Ps I find this years tour not so exciting as we already lost contenders and we have too many sprints....

Not so exciting? It's downright boring. Big mistake by the organizers to send Sagan home, especially when they knew Cav was out. Greipel, Contador and Quintana are riding like shadows of their past. Kittel rides like a man among boys in the sprints using which ever lead-out train he can subjugate. It's a marathon though, and sprint wins mean nothing overall.

Stage 12 should hold better interest and could be pivotal if Aru, Bardet, or Quintana can put a dent in Froome's lead. I'm hoping there will be some kind of shake-up in the GC standings, though I'm not expecting it. Time will tell where riders have spent their energies and how much the loss of Thomas impacts Froome's seeming stranglehold.

naim_nymph posted:

Todays stage looks like it could shake-up the GC some more:

 

Perhaps Contador will give up on his GC plans, and go all out for a stage win? : )

Debs

 

Contador has kissed the road too often.

joerand posted:

Not so exciting? It's downright boring. Big mistake by the organizers to send Sagan home, especially when they knew Cav was out. Greipel, Contador and Quintana are riding like shadows of their past. Kittel rides like a man among boys in the sprints using which ever lead-out train he can subjugate. It's a marathon though, and sprint wins mean nothing overall.

Stage 12 should hold better interest and could be pivotal if Aru, Bardet, or Quintana can put a dent in Froome's lead. I'm hoping there will be some kind of shake-up in the GC standings, though I'm not expecting it. Time will tell where riders have spent their energies and how much the loss of Thomas impacts Froome's seeming stranglehold.

Sagan is subject to the laws of the organisers as everyone else. No place for favouritism in their decision. 

The route this year was always going to make the Tour 'different' in terms of the GC with only 3 summit finishes. However when you have only an 18sec lead and with time bonuses for stage wins it really is not over yet. The last time trial is short at 22.5km too.

I think the bit that has been slightly disappointing so far is the inevitable catch of every breakaway. Just once in a while I'd love to see an escape make it!

Bruce

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

joerand posted:

Not so exciting? It's downright boring. Big mistake by the organizers to send Sagan home, especially when they knew Cav was out. Greipel, Contador and Quintana are riding like shadows of their past. Kittel rides like a man among boys in the sprints using which ever lead-out train he can subjugate. It's a marathon though, and sprint wins mean nothing overall.

Stage 12 should hold better interest and could be pivotal if Aru, Bardet, or Quintana can put a dent in Froome's lead. I'm hoping there will be some kind of shake-up in the GC standings, though I'm not expecting it. Time will tell where riders have spent their energies and how much the loss of Thomas impacts Froome's seeming stranglehold.

Sagan is subject to the laws of the organisers as everyone else. No place for favouritism in their decision. 

...

Bruce

If this was true, Cav was sent home many times before.

The ASO organise the race.

 The Commissaires ensure the rules are adhered too. (I think they initially docked Sagan 80 points).

 The UCI, cycling governing body, kicked Sagan off the race.

 Sagans a talented rider, but he can’t compete with Kitel or any in form top notch sprinter.

Good job Fabio,one more time.Just great.

Fabio 1 posted:

Good job Fabio,one more time.Just great.

Fabio will get a chance to extend his lead today, especially if Froomey really is struggling with form

Stage 13 [ Friday 14th ] Three 1st category climbs and lots of high-speed descending today,

i hope it don't rain, we don't need any more crashes...

Debs

The Peguere is just a nasty, nasty climb. 4km of hell.

Happy to see a shake-up today . I love a climb finish and the crowds in the Pyrenees are always electric. Interesting that Sky rider Landa had more in his tank than Froome today. Stage 13 will certainly test the riders' recovery capacities, as well as their descending skills. Should be fun.

winkyincanada posted:

The Peguere is just a nasty, nasty climb. 4km of hell.

You say it as if you've been there, done that.

joerand posted:

winkyincanada posted:

The Peguere is just a nasty, nasty climb. 4km of hell.

You say it as if you've been there, done that.

Indeed I have.

winkyincanada posted:

joerand posted:

winkyincanada posted:

The Peguere is just a nasty, nasty climb. 4km of hell.

You say it as if you've been there, done that.

Indeed I have.

winkyincanada posted:

joerand posted:

winkyincanada posted:

The Peguere is just a nasty, nasty climb. 4km of hell.

You say it as if you've been there, done that.

Indeed I have.

Hell or the climb? Both? 

Saturday - Stage 14

Todays stage is a potentially energy sapping 181.5 km that looks possibly like a sprinters finish if only they can get over the two 3rd category climbs and a final kick up [uncategorised?] Bonnecombe..?

On the other hand, will the puncheur attacks come thick and fast to split up the peloton?, or will they use today for a easy day to recoup from yesterday and in preparation of tomorrows difficult mountain stage?

Sunday - Stage 15