The relevance of the source using good or bad recordings on revealing loudspeakers

You've just opened the window wider with the new speakers so they will reveal shortcomings further up the chain. For me, i've always found as i've improved the source the better the system deals with poorly produced recordings and I don't tend to find poor quality recordings get in the way of enjoying a favourite album these days.  

The CD5i, good as it is, is now outclassed by the back end of the system so i'm sure you'll have fun trying some alternative source components. 

James

The system you have really is the ultimate mullet. £7,500 high resolution speakers, active power amps, an AV2 as preamp and then Naim's cheapest CD player. Heaven knows why you built it this way, with the wealth of information available here, but it seems you have. Back in the day I had a CDS3 with 552/300 and even the ropiest recording sounded great. Its musical abilities just made technical imperfections irrelevant. If I were you, I'd be after a CDS3 or 555 and at least a 252/Suercap. A passive 300 is likely to be better than active 200s as well. People will say - ooh, that's harsh, you can't call it a mullet, source first is outdated, digital sources are all the same, matching your speakers to the room is what counts. They can say it, but it's rubbish. IMHO, of course. 

HH, I appreciate your reply and replies in general. Probably not a comment you are after, but I wanted to have it written down.

I know, I have the ultimate mullet. Reason for that is that I not only have Naim stuff in my house to sit and enjoy music, but also to discover all the laws which are preached on this forum. Honestly, I'm a source first believer and I'm impressed by folks having a n272 + nap 100 into some Neat speakers. But, how would I learn all the hifi lessons having such a system?

Thanks to this mullet, I'm now aware what happens when an engineer makes a mistake and dumps overcompressed music on a CD. I now know that bass definition improves when the preamp gets replaced by a better one (my SN1).

I learn to listen analytically in a different way. I just love to do things exactly the other way around because I seem to learn that way - not only in hifi, but in general - it gave me an my teachers (quite some time ago) a hard time now and then.

Yes, you are right: it is very likely that there will be a CDS3 in the future in my house. Regarding streaming, I'm awaiting Naims current developments.

balanced system will always be the most rewarding, i would always suggest the source should be equal to the the rest of the system

What does a good source do to make a bad recording sound ok? I can't understand what it potentially makes it more enjoyable.

Ardbeg10y posted:

What does a good source do to make a bad recording sound ok?

It doesn't. Only more reveals the shortcomings.

Pay heed to the balanced system comments above. "Source first" goes so far within reason. You can't put lipstick on a pig, etc.

joerand posted:

Ardbeg10y posted:

What does a good source do to make a bad recording sound ok?

It doesn't. Only more reveals the shortcomings.

Often true.

However:

A surprise of ownership was to discover that the NAC 552 could be both revealing and forgiving.

When the CD 555 first came out we had it running at a show and I was able to listen in on its development from near-new to having run for a few days. 

By the end of the weekend my strongest impression was how it produced a most acceptable sound from (previously) marginal or previously poorly presented CDs. It reminded me of why I'd liked the music in its original LP form.

The CDS3 plays most discs with sympathy.

i think rubbish is a bit harsh but each to their own, theres some fine components but I think the system requires the 'source first' approach.

If it were mine I'd improve the CD player then change to a better pre-amp.

Once youve enjoyed that for a while, compare the active 200's to a single 300DR or perhaps two if you really wanted to go for it!

I agree with you. If you read my post again you'll see that I didn't say the system was rubbish; it was a comment on the things people sometimes say. 

Regarding the system, it sounds far, far superiour to my CD5i(talic) >> Supernait 1 + Hicap DR into B&W CM5 S2's.

I almost cannot listen to my first system. Never thought a loudspeaker upgrade was such a massive step. And I never thought a CD5i can be that good.

... and I admit, the source is the weakest link currently ...

Question remains: why and how can a better, more revealing CD player also be more forgiving. What does the trick on the CDS3 and CD555? The only thing I can see is that the Dac detects e.g. sections having relatively much noise or compression and operates differently on these sections.

A good source gets more out of the recording - even a relatively poor one.  A great source allows you to more easily ignore what may be bad about the "cosmetic" aspects of a particular recording and focus more on the actual musical performance, the fundamentals.  

Ardbeg10y posted:

 

Question remains: why and how can a better, more revealing CD player also be more forgiving. What does the trick on the CDS3 and CD555? The only thing I can see is that the Dac detects e.g. sections having relatively much noise or compression and operates differently on these sections.

It doesn't perform any tricks or processing. Every CD is treated the same way (only difference is with an HDCD encoded CD but that's a slightly different story). 

Richard summarises it nicely -  A great source allows you to more easily ignore what may be bad about the "cosmetic" aspects of a particular recording and focus more on the actual musical performance, the fundamentals.  

Another vote in favour of Richard's comment.

Better components (better sources, then better amplifiers and finally being revealed through better speakers) all put you more in touch with the music, even in less well recoded material; as a result you'll be more focussed on the music and more able to ignore the flaws in the recording.  The better the whole reproduction chain, the more this applies.

Better speakers won't make up for a poorer source component, but on the other hand, less musical and less revealing speakers will often hide the better musicality of better source components and amplifiers.

A good source may not make a bad recording sound better, but it will let it make more sense.  I do like lipsticked pigs and glittering turds every now and again.

Most agree in having a balanced system as a final destination, although the journey to get there is always up for debate.  Ardbegy, as you have said, sometimes it's better to tread your own path - as then you will have learnt for yourself - which has got to mean more than just relying on others experience.  

Ardbeg10y posted:

HH, I appreciate your reply and replies in general. Probably not a comment you are after, but I wanted to have it written down.

I know, I have the ultimate mullet. Reason for that is that I not only have Naim stuff in my house to sit and enjoy music, but also to discover all the laws which are preached on this forum. Honestly, I'm a source first believer and I'm impressed by folks having a n272 + nap 100 into some Neat speakers. But, how would I learn all the hifi lessons having such a system?

Thanks to this mullet, I'm now aware what happens when an engineer makes a mistake and dumps overcompressed music on a CD. I now know that bass definition improves when the preamp gets replaced by a better one (my SN1).

I learn to listen analytically in a different way. I just love to do things exactly the other way around because I seem to learn that way - not only in hifi, but in general - it gave me an my teachers (quite some time ago) a hard time now and then.

Yes, you are right: it is very likely that there will be a CDS3 in the future in my house. Regarding streaming, I'm awaiting Naims current developments.

Learning the hard way can be very expensive in this hoby. Your source is out of balance and indeed a better source does also make worse recordings better digestible...

As some mentioned in naim facebook page, better the system you are playing them worse gets the oasis albums!!

which is my experince as well, i bought the hi res copies but they sound so bad

i miss my discman and sony stereo for oasis only

both great albums! 

Emre, imagine how it would have sounded on your CD555!

I agree with almost everyone, even with the slightly black-and-white-ish HH. But we must get over the fact that the source – first or not – is not the player, but the recording. From this point of view, the aberrant habit of some 'audiophiles' to mainly buy well recorded discs and not discs of inherent artistic value, is understandable (although not shareable by those who insist in finding artistic value in a recording).

If we choose to decide that the CDP, or the DAC or whatever, is the source and what comes before it is beyond our control, hence the CDP or preamp has a right to be qualified according to its capacity to make a recording more or less acceptable, or listenable, it is our right to do so; but the recording is the head, and the CDP is the hairdresser.

Das glaube Ich.

CD

Hungryhalibut posted:

I agree with you. If you read my post again you'll see that I didn't say the system was rubbish; it was a comment on the things people sometimes say. 

OK, agreed

Ardbeg10y posted:

Emre, imagine how it would have sounded on your CD555!

In my dreams only i find öne but could not pick it up from london

I will wait 555 streamer

Hi as i have improved my source ... i am constantly amazed at how much information is actually in 16bit 44.1 red book std recordings. Most of my flacs sound great.... yes there are a few that are not great but they are tuneful .... and you kind of forget about it.... hope this make sense....

When I entered the Naim world, I came to know that it is possible to enjoy Symphonies - mainly because Naim can cope with the dynamics in this kind of music. I really enjoyed for 1.5 year listening to Tchaikovski, Mozart etc.. on my CD5i, Supernait and CM1's. For the bigger Symphonies, dynamics and harmony are more important than the level of detail IMO.

Unfortunately, Organmusic (my B degree) did not work out well, mainly because of the missing lower end and details which were lost.

Now I can truly enjoy this music on the Ovatori. Solid, clean bass and the BMR's seem to deal well with the details. I can hear so much detail. There is hardly any recording where I don't hear the windengine and the mechanics. This gives me the feeling that I more or less hang in the position of the microphone in a church. Had a good listen to Bach's cello suites yesterday.

While programming Java, I'm going trough my collection and especially listen to the recordings which I did not enjoy before. And there are gems found!

The CD5i (and in lesser importance the preamp) are possibly not able to deal with the more crappy recordings - as written by several people above. For some reason I feel the need to understand what a better Cd player / streamer does to help the listener to drag trough the crap to make it less distracting and not just that a great player does it better - which I immediate believe.

I've ordered some Naim 'Active Leads' to connect the Snaxo to the PowerAmps. Maybe the flaws in the source will be even more revealed ...

It has been my experience that the better the system, the better that indifferent recordings sound. It's also my experience that some recordings, no matter how much you like the music and how well your hifi deals with them, are forever consigned to the "never played" list. The bigger your collection, the easier it is to find some music that suits your mood, and is also well recorded.

If I'm honest, I do have a bias towards better sounding recordings., even though I have many old recordings. If I look at say jazz/blues/torch singers there is Edith Piaf, Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald and numerous blues singers from the 1930's onward in my collection. Sure it's great to listen, sure you appreciate the voice, but....  It's obvious to me that the Carol Kidd, Diana Krall or whatever will get more of an outing if I'm in the mood for female Jazz vocalists. I'm not arguing that any artist is better/worse, it's just that when I'm scrolling through the options on my I-pad or flicking through the cd's I will, (subconsciously or not), tend to pick the better, more modern recordings.

With the advent of HD albums, you can pick the extra quality on even old recordings. I just got a HD Tracks Billie Holiday "Lady Sings The Blues". It is markedly better than the CD rip. So it's getting more of a play.

But I have always found, that if you have truly upgraded your system, then the music sounds better. So I never fear that upgraditis will lead to me discarding old favourites.