Love my CDX2. But what about vinyl??

Jonn posted:

analogmusic posted:

sorry to throw this curve ball, but I found that the Hugo DAC (and now Hugo 2), well it has the flow of Vinyl, and also the Dynamics of good digital.... best of both worlds 

Modern Vinyl - well despite the resurgence, is still mastered from Digital anyway. I think if most of the people enjoying vinyl today heard the albums on a Hugo DAC, it might change their buying habits of vinyl,

It stopped me buying vinyl (drastically reduced to almost none)

If the Hugo DAC sounds better than vinyl (assuming it's not a CD copy) then there is something seriously wrong or the record player is a low quality budget player.

The DAC sounded nothing like my record deck when I had it on trial. As for dynamics, this is the area where a decent analogue system excels, digital systems are nowhere near as good in my experience.

 

Vinyl suffers from compression and surface noise (and potentially from artefacts arising from the frequency pre- and de-emphasis applied,) so inherently is inferior to digital now that the reconstruction of analogue waveform has become as good as is achieved by the likes of Hugo etc. regarding dynamic range, digital is capable of much greater than vinyl, the limitation generally being in the mastering, and modern recordings of pop music in particular is renowned for being far more compressed than decades ago, so that can influence casual assessments of vinyl vs digital.

badlands posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

My CDX2 is about to depart - it's power supply left yesterday. As of next week it's only streamers and two turntables left

Happy days...

Why limit yourself to just the two formats, when you already have such an excellent player? I have yet to hear any streaming format that can match the sound quality of a CDX2.

I certainly hope happy days will follow, but something tells me you will miss your CDX2 player sooner than later.

2 out of 3 ain't Bad!

LP 12 & NDS, knowing Adam!

He's hooked on Naim, like crack Cocaine!

On the other hand I'm leaning towards:

Cdx2 & Streaming!

The TT & CDP, has already been perfected!

Bare minimalist! CD 555, and Loaded LP 12.

Streaming, I don't know, maybe another 3-5 years! 

I would hate to pan out NDS $, to find out, it's obsolete!

Meanwhile,  I'll be slumming with my Cdx2, MM, Airport Extreme, Airport Express to 3 different Systems, all controlled by an Android phone, Whilst lying in bed!

Ain't Bad!

Allante93!

PS. Remote II application & itunes!

My best advice is not to buy a turntable unless you already have a closet full of vinyl to play.  

My CD555 sounds  very close to my Verdier turntable.  It has a Sarum Super i/c.   My Verdier is the beneficiary of the best Naim has to offer with a Superline-Supercap and HiLine, and Z-Plug.  It sounds very good.  If there is a turntable masterpiece, I own it.  

My LP's would fill a truck.  My CD's would take a second trip.  Don't go where I am.  

People say streaming is better yet.   Digital formats are improving.  My little Halide streamer rocks from my MacBook and Audirvana.  I have resisted streaming because I am anchored in physical media. I have been so anchored for almost 50 years.

My son has a Unitiqute and Blumenstein speakers.  He uses Mac Air as a source.   I could live with this and you could too.   His rig and all his music would fit in his Mazda 3 with room for the three of us.  We could squeeze a fourth.

Among music lovers today, life comes at you fast.   We might enjoy our physical media.  But why do this to yourself?

Innocent Bystander posted:

Vinyl suffers from compression and surface noise (and potentially from artefacts arising from the frequency pre- and de-emphasis applied,) so inherently is inferior to digital now that the reconstruction of analogue waveform has become as good as is achieved by the likes of Hugo etc. regarding dynamic range, digital is capable of much greater than vinyl, the limitation generally being in the mastering, and modern recordings of pop music in particular is renowned for being far more compressed than decades ago, so that can influence casual assessments of vinyl vs digital.

A typical, hypothetical declaration of the superiority of digital versus vinyl replay. It all works on paper, but ears and brains aren't made of paper. The same argument can be made for digital versus film photography. Give Ansel Adams a digital camera today and I'm sure he'd be quite competent. Still there'd probably not be the intrinsic warmth and genuosity he obtained in his original film captures.

The flaw here (and Joe this isn't specifically aimed at tou) is that modern vinyl is digital... the analogue turntable, disc and cartridge is simply part of the discrete digital to analogue reconstruction filter. A reconstruction filter can take many forms to create an analogue continuum including using a mechanical filter such as with a TT ... most of the discussion about 'vinyl' vs 'digital' is based on emotional misunderstandings seemingly centred around the different filter characteristics of RIAA TT replay rather than any actual reality according to what I see. 

What we really should've talking about is about DAC and filter types, of which the TT is a variant of..

I agree with Simons opinion of the misunderstandings over the vinyl/digital debate which have been running for decades now.

For those of us who bought into the super turntables that were the analogue interests response to digital back in the 80's 90's the differences became lesser.

When the likes of Linn and Pink Triangle refined the so called warmth of vinyl to a minimum then analogue was the winner to my ears.

Since then digital technology has further improved, turning the tables again.

My pta will need further upgrading to match a cdx2 playing an hdcd, but I don't think I will bother.

Especially considering the above comments on the digital origins of modern vinyl!

... and not to mention the lack of hdcd's available!

Streaming is basically the work of the devil and should be avoided at all costs. we much prefer my Naimed Phonosophie, NAt01 Tuner, cd. BUT the only decent one is the NDX/NDS. We use a HDX and DAC and XPS2 for six years now and it is very good.

The rest of them (linn etc) are very artifical sounding. 

The fundamental difference between analogue and digital is that the latter has been quantised and the former hasn't, so reconstruction of an analogue waveform is necessary. And the problem until fairly recently is that DACs seemed to produce something that didn't quite sound right (whatever that means), whereas the prime  deficiencies with vinyl are different, but have always been familiar, at least to anyone above a certain age.

of course anyone may prefer the sound of either.

That's why I tend to buy analogue only vinyl! I know a reel to reel boffin who worked on my B77 and still works on the analogue machines at Abbey Road as well as servicing BBC OSB equipment. He was recently reflecting on the desire for some bands to run digital recordings through Otari or a Studer reel to reel decks then back to digital because they like the analogue sound imparted - strange old world! Evidently it's fairly common. Some of the nicest recent pure analogue vinyl recordings were even recorded with simple stereo mics direct to Studers or even B77s - even more strange but true. Or you can cut out the middle man and take the desk output right to the cutting lathe and they do sound rather nice if a tad expensive.

about the transfer from digital to analogue tape then back to digital

not very transparent

1) damage at ADC first pass (from the live feed off the mixer board)

2) damage at analogue tape level - loss of dynamics - and coloration from tape

3) and yet damage again at next ADC (back to digital)

Anyway maybe this will resolved when Rob Watts releases his pulse array ADC

With the exception of possibly Vitus and a couple of other high end brands there are not really any other digital sources to match the CDX2, CDS3 and 555. Different presentations each but one common facet - they engage the listener like little else.   And that's something they share with good vinyl reproduction.   But whenever I listen to a CD and then immediately play some vinyl the latter still has a soundstage and richness that the former can't achieve.   

With regard to choice of TT I have no experience of the OP's model but when I auditioned it was a long and painstaking process.  My only advice would be is don't assume a LP12 is the default solution. 

Regards,

Lindsay

Andib posted:

After months of abstinence (only using my nds and bauer TT) I am once again very impressed by my CDX2. Just wow!! A very dynamic and "punchy" sound. And also warm and detailed - nearly a bit of everything to me..

But I never found a turntable with that CDX2 sound.. Is there any out there? I tried proJect expression and rpm5, rega P5 and RP10 (just lent 3 days), and bauer dps2 over the years. The "nearest" in that category to my ears was the RP10... But what would you say? Is there any TT masterpiece in this regard? Thank you for any recommendations.

i would search around direct drive turntables, if you like very punchy sound: old rebuilt garrard , to masterpieces like vpi direct drive ( 25k). There are also new garrard.  and a lot of other brands....

Jonn posted:

analogmusic posted:

sorry to throw this curve ball, but I found that the Hugo DAC (and now Hugo 2), well it has the flow of Vinyl, and also the Dynamics of good digital.... best of both worlds 

Modern Vinyl - well despite the resurgence, is still mastered from Digital anyway. I think if most of the people enjoying vinyl today heard the albums on a Hugo DAC, it might change their buying habits of vinyl,

It stopped me buying vinyl (drastically reduced to almost none)

If the Hugo DAC sounds better than vinyl (assuming it's not a CD copy) then there is something seriously wrong or the record player is a low quality budget player.

The DAC sounded nothing like my record deck when I had it on trial. As for dynamics, this is the area where a decent analogue system excels, digital systems are nowhere near as good in my experience.

 

100% agree!  my nds/555dr/ fully upgraded network can't challenge with my sme20/2a turntable....

I think it could have something to do with real mechanical timing, that favors the Analog TT!

In my life time, I have seen the Digital CD narrow that gap, as it pertains to the analog sound!

However, the same mechanical timing that favors the TT, also favors the Digital CD.

The Mechanical Contact Between Cartridge and Vinyl, which increases the noise level! 

Pick your poison, or resort to the real to real tape!

Master tapes $$$$$$$.

Spent some time at an David Wilson's Seminar, last month. 

$59K. Alexandria Speakers, D' Agostino's Mono Blocks, etc...

No TT, but the real to real, was superb.

The Tape Clearly Trumped, the Digital streaming & CD!

However, the last CD was a very nice recording, which I requested a spin!

I stole the Show, Mino Cinelu!!!

Those $59K Speakers were singing to the nth degree!

Getting long winded!

But to summarize, The Digital CD is bargain, especially when combined with a nice recording!

Allante93!

I think it could have something to do with real mechanical timing, that favors the Analog TT!

In my life time, I have seen the Digital CD narrow that gap, as it pertains to the analog sound!

However, the same mechanical timing that favors the TT, also favors the Digital CD.

The Mechanical Contact Between Cartridge and Vinyl, which increases the noise level! 

Pick your poison, or resort to the reel to reel tape!

Master tapes $$$$$$$.

Spent some time at an David Wilson's Seminar, last month. 

$59K. Alexandria Speakers, D' Agostino's Mono Blocks, etc...

No TT, but the reel to reel, was superb.

The Tape Clearly Trumped, the Digital streaming & CD!

However, the last CD was a very nice recording, one of thirty, of my pristine recordings!

I stole the Show, Mino Cinelu!!!

Those $59K Speakers were singing to the nth degree!

Getting long winded!

But to summarize, The Digital CD is bargain, especially when combined with a nice recording!

Allante93!

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

The flaw here (and Joe this isn't specifically aimed at tou) is that modern vinyl is digital... the analogue turntable, disc and cartridge is simply part of the discrete digital to analogue reconstruction filter. A reconstruction filter can take many forms to create an analogue continuum including using a mechanical filter such as with a TT ... most of the discussion about 'vinyl' vs 'digital' is based on emotional misunderstandings seemingly centred around the different filter characteristics of RIAA TT replay rather than any actual reality according to what I see. 

What we really should've talking about is about DAC and filter types, of which the TT is a variant of..

Your analogy concerning the filter seems reasonable, but it tends to contradict the claim modern vinyl is digital, therefore it sounds digital.   

We hear claims Chord Dacs and their super dupper infinite tap length filters produce the most realistic analogue sound available from digital. Well this simply isn’t true, that accolade goes to the turntable. It doesn’t matter if the records recorded in digital, a turntable will still turn it into something special.

Master Tape versus 180g Vinyl versus Blu Ray Audio
Reply #4 - 07/25/16 at 06:35:09 

""Perhaps the most fascinating part of tape machines is the fact that you can't just lay down a recording on tape with a varying magnetic field of the recording like you would think... instead you have to create an oscillator which works....""

Reel to Reel Tape, The New Vinyl

Most interesting is that the tapes are available in two levels: "basic" and "premium". "Basic" is available in both two or four track formats at 7.5 IPS CCIR EQ only on SM468 tape. "Premium" is "completely customizable", allowing you to choose different tape formats, speeds, emulsions and EQs. Each comes in a hand made collector's box with album booklet, unique design aluminum flange and "much more".

{Cost? Basic tapes are about $100. Premium about $270.}

Repeat, The CDP may not be the the Audiophiles Utopian Source, but @ $20 a CD coupled with a good recording, it ain't BAD!

Allante93!

Allante93 posted:

Master Tape versus 180g Vinyl versus Blu Ray Audio
Reply #4 - 07/25/16 at 06:35:09 

""Perhaps the most fascinating part of tape machines is the fact that you can't just lay down a recording on tape with a varying magnetic field of the recording like you would think... instead you have to create an oscillator which works....""

Reel to Reel Tape, The New Vinyl

Most interesting is that the tapes are available in two levels: "basic" and "premium". "Basic" is available in both two or four track formats at 7.5 IPS CCIR EQ only on SM468 tape. "Premium" is "completely customizable", allowing you to choose different tape formats, speeds, emulsions and EQs. Each comes in a hand made collector's box with album booklet, unique design aluminum flange and "much more".

{Cost? Basic tapes are about $100. Premium about $270.}

Repeat, The CDP may not be the the Audiophiles Utopian Source, but @ $20 a CD coupled with a good recording, it ain't BAD!

Allante93!

alliante, master tapes are probably the best source available: but how many are on the market? less than sacd, for a very expensive cost. So who will buy them?  very rich people only, just to hear always the same standards as pink floyd or miles davis kind of blue.

It is like mobile fidelity 45 pm reissues on vinyl, around 70 GBP for an album. I have 4 or 5, the sound is marvelous, but it is a minority market.

I prefer to buy original mint pressings, us or japan, at discogs...or near mint.   The sound is close, but the choice much bigger.

But even that, for music after 1985, you have only cds or high rez, and it is now more than 30 years of music. For vinyl, my period is 1970 to 1985, on vinyl, so only 15 years of music, and i am rarely discovering something new on vinyl.  For me vinyl is the best sound, but only on some occasions. I mostly hear music with my nds.

If i had master tapes, perhaps i will have 20 of them...You will not find herbie hancock, temptations, wilson pickett or jj cale on master tapes....

fatcat posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

The flaw here (and Joe this isn't specifically aimed at tou) is that modern vinyl is digital... the analogue turntable, disc and cartridge is simply part of the discrete digital to analogue reconstruction filter. A reconstruction filter can take many forms to create an analogue continuum including using a mechanical filter such as with a TT ... most of the discussion about 'vinyl' vs 'digital' is based on emotional misunderstandings seemingly centred around the different filter characteristics of RIAA TT replay rather than any actual reality according to what I see. 

What we really should've talking about is about DAC and filter types, of which the TT is a variant of..

Your analogy concerning the filter seems reasonable, but it tends to contradict the claim modern vinyl is digital, therefore it sounds digital.   

We hear claims Chord Dacs and their super dupper infinite tap length filters produce the most realistic analogue sound available from digital. Well this simply isn’t true, that accolade goes to the turntable. It doesn’t matter if the records recorded in digital, a turntable will still turn it into something special.

why do you say not true?

Hugo and Dave produce amazingly realistic sounds..

Not sure sure about pops and clicks, distorted and romantic sounding vinyl, and those coming from analog tape too where the music has already been damaged while recording on tape. sure nice artificial and romantic sounds, but not realistic. Too soft to sound "live"

few months ago, heard some analog tape, I almost choked how artificial and distorted it sounded.

Sure some people like the romance, and that's ok, but for me all this vinyl and tape is now in the past. 

I'll take a Chord Mojo,Vertere cables,  MacBook air, and tidal, anyway over a turnable and hundred's of LP.

When digital is done right, like Chord has done, then it's bye bye (goodbye for me) analogue.

You've become an oxymoron.

analogmusic posted:

fatcat posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

The flaw here (and Joe this isn't specifically aimed at tou) is that modern vinyl is digital... the analogue turntable, disc and cartridge is simply part of the discrete digital to analogue reconstruction filter. A reconstruction filter can take many forms to create an analogue continuum including using a mechanical filter such as with a TT ... most of the discussion about 'vinyl' vs 'digital' is based on emotional misunderstandings seemingly centred around the different filter characteristics of RIAA TT replay rather than any actual reality according to what I see. 

What we really should've talking about is about DAC and filter types, of which the TT is a variant of..

Your analogy concerning the filter seems reasonable, but it tends to contradict the claim modern vinyl is digital, therefore it sounds digital.   

We hear claims Chord Dacs and their super dupper infinite tap length filters produce the most realistic analogue sound available from digital. Well this simply isn’t true, that accolade goes to the turntable. It doesn’t matter if the records recorded in digital, a turntable will still turn it into something special.

why do you say not true?

Hugo and Dave produce amazingly realistic sounds..

Not sure sure about pops and clicks, distorted and romantic sounding vinyl, and those coming from analog tape too where the music has already been damaged while recording on tape. sure nice artificial and romantic sounds, but not realistic. Too soft to sound "live"

few months ago, heard some analog tape, I almost choked how artificial and distorted it sounded.

Sure some people like the romance, and that's ok, but for me all this vinyl and tape is now in the past. 

I'll take a Chord Mojo,Vertere cables,  MacBook air, and tidal, anyway over a turnable and hundred's of LP.

When digital is done right, like Chord has done, then it's bye bye (goodbye for me) analogue.

Have you read Simon’s post and my reply, or have you just noticed I wrote “We hear claims Chord Dacs and their super dupper infinite tap length filters produce the most realistic analogue sound available from digital. Well this simply isn’t true”

 I own a Mojo and it is very very good. But why is the mojo, hugo and dave very very good.

analogmusic posted:

fatcat posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

The flaw here (and Joe this isn't specifically aimed at tou) is that modern vinyl is digital... the analogue turntable, disc and cartridge is simply part of the discrete digital to analogue reconstruction filter. A reconstruction filter can take many forms to create an analogue continuum including using a mechanical filter such as with a TT ... most of the discussion about 'vinyl' vs 'digital' is based on emotional misunderstandings seemingly centred around the different filter characteristics of RIAA TT replay rather than any actual reality according to what I see. 

What we really should've talking about is about DAC and filter types, of which the TT is a variant of..

Your analogy concerning the filter seems reasonable, but it tends to contradict the claim modern vinyl is digital, therefore it sounds digital.   

We hear claims Chord Dacs and their super dupper infinite tap length filters produce the most realistic analogue sound available from digital. Well this simply isn’t true, that accolade goes to the turntable. It doesn’t matter if the records recorded in digital, a turntable will still turn it into something special.

why do you say not true?

Hugo and Dave produce amazingly realistic sounds..

Not sure sure about pops and clicks, distorted and romantic sounding vinyl, and those coming from analog tape too where the music has already been damaged while recording on tape. sure nice artificial and romantic sounds, but not realistic. Too soft to sound "live"

few months ago, heard some analog tape, I almost choked how artificial and distorted it sounded.

Sure some people like the romance, and that's ok, but for me all this vinyl and tape is now in the past. 

I'll take a Chord Mojo,Vertere cables,  MacBook air, and tidal, anyway over a turnable and hundred's of LP.

When digital is done right, like Chord has done, then it's bye bye (goodbye for me) analogue.

you don't know what a good turntable can do. You say romantic, i say bombastic, with dynamics no digital can reach. But for that, you need a turntable like sme 20 and more, big vpi, vertere, high models of clearaudio or acoustic signature... These turntables put in the shame the best digital sources available today.  I think you have just listened to rega or entry level linn...

Heard the hi end Turntables and very good they are.

maybe you haven't properly heard what a chord Dave sounds like 

fat cat 

the issue with digital was that emotional content of music was missing (and this was Digital's fatal flaw) and that it didn't have the small signal resolution. That's why Mojo, Hugo and Dave are very good.

I'm not saying that Dave has the resolution of the very best analog, but with the Chord ADC, and then the Blu upscale, it has been reported that is solves that gap.

But the emotional content is there, and the Mojo/Hugo/Dave have  a big soundstage, like vinyl, and the sounds float out of the speakers, just as it should...

With my Dave/Hugo/Mojo and Tidal, the sound quality is very good, and access to tens of thousands of albums....

fatcat posted:

Your analogy concerning the filter seems reasonable, but it tends to contradict the claim modern vinyl is digital, therefore it sounds digital.   

We hear claims Chord Dacs and their super dupper infinite tap length filters produce the most realistic analogue sound available from digital....

Hmm, not quite, my point is this days there is no such thing as sounding necessarily 'digital'... sure in earlier or current very cheap DACs the reconstruction was quite limiting and so produced the analogue a certain way and that produced a characteristic trait.. that was  perhaps referred to as sounding 'digital' ... of course literally that was nonsense, you were of course hearing limitations of a specific analogue reconstruction.

Now an analogue turn table using disc, arm and cartridge with RIAA phone preamp is also a type of reconstruction filter... and of course the Chord DACs with extended filter kernels (more 'taps') is a another type of reconstruction filter method, and Naim use their own approach using an AD DSP module (SHARC processor) blah blah blah ... each are valid and both are lossy and imperfect but each reconstruct the analogue sound of the digital master to 'taste'... and sure the latest Chord efforts provide more distance between the limitations of earlier analogue reconstruction that perhaps were otherwise more easily performed via an electro mechanical filter.

As far as the most realistic sound available.. that is a hard one to call with recorded music replay, as quite a lot of processing and EQ is undertaken in the master for artistic reasons, presentation reasons and also technical/mechanical reasons such as with vinyl.