Love my CDX2. But what about vinyl??

Chord is one of the unique companies that do not use off the shelf DAC chips as they don't offer the performance levels needed, to forget about analogue vinyl and tape and put them in the past.

I think more than the taps, the Pulse Array DAC is quite advanced thinking..... 

as Rob Watts said himself

" in late 1988 I heard the Phillips bitstream DAC, the SAA7320. This was PDM, and is the same technically as DSD 256. This experience surprised me: CD that sounded relatively smooth and musical. So at that point I wanted to develop DAC’s and went on to design the Deltec PDM 1. In developing this DAC, I managed to reduce the major digital problem of increasing distortion for small signals by using the PDM chips from Phillips. Since PDM is single bit, it can be made to have an analogue distortion characteristic in that distortion increases with signal level. But studying the theory of PDM led me to a worrying thought: how can you accurately reproduce small, high frequency signals with only 256 pulses to encode a 22uS sample? Intuitively, it seemed way too small a number.

So I started experimenting with using multiple noise shapers (a noise shaper creates the PDM or DSD 256 bit stream) fed with different randomised data, so adding the outputs together gave more resolution as each noise shaper would have a different sequence. This strategy did indeed give better sound quality, and was in the PDM 1024 DAC.
But I knew that having multiple noise shapers was not solving the problem, just reducing it by a bit; but the fact that it made substantial differences indicated that there was indeed a major problem with resolution of PDM or DSD.
The PDM 1024 used an FPGA (these are blank digital chips upon which you can design your own digital logic) – it was one of the first devices available – to create the randomised data. But FPGA’s started to get more advanced, and by 1994 I was capable of doing a noise shaper entirely on an FPGA. So, I acquired FPGA design skills and the tools to design FPGA’s and this set me off onto the digital design path, where I was no longer limited by using silicon that is designed for the mass market, but could concentrate only
on high end performance. At this point my Pulse Array DAC was developed. This enabled very high speed noise shaping at 2048 FS, and ran at 5 bits output, so it had much better resolution than 256 DSD/PDM. The approach had other benefits; much lower jitter sensitivity, zero measurable noise floor modulation, and lower out of band noise, which enabled simpler output stages.
With Pulse Array I felt that I had solved one of the major problems of digital – the low level distortion and resolution problem – but that still left the timing problem from sampling theory."

analogmusic posted:

 

as Rob Watts said himself

 

Are you sponsored by Chord ?

analogmusic posted:

 "one of the unique"

Oxymoron police anyone?

No Rob Watts promotes his products himself on head-fi.

I just enjoy listening to music on  their  Dacs. Can't say much about the  Chord amplifiers, can't be bothered to audition them, as Naim do that job just great for me.

I'm not planning to move away from Naim amps.

joerand posted:

analogmusic posted:

 "one of the unique"

Oxymoron police anyone?

Maybe DCS do their own "ring DAC", I think Total DAC use Vishay resistors, but the rest of the industry uses silicon DAC chips.

analogmusic posted:

joerand posted:

analogmusic posted:

 "one of the unique"

Oxymoron police anyone?

Maybe DCS do their own "ring DAC", I think Total DAC use Vishay resistors, but the rest of the industry uses silicon DAC chips.

Well at least my comment wasn't lost on you

analogmusic posted:

Heard the hi end Turntables and very good they are.

maybe you haven't properly heard what a chord Dave sounds like 

 

 

i have heard chord dave, full stack dcs, metronome kallista and cd555 . i have nds/555 dr....

MSB also use their own discrete resistors, maybe other companies too.

The thing is all these other companies are priced way beyond what I am prepared to pay (whether NDS/555. Linn KDS/1, MSB, DCS, and lots of other hi-end sources)

Hugo and Mojo give a real taste of hi-end. In the case of mojo, only 400 GBP

analogmusic posted:

fat cat 

the issue with digital was that emotional content of music was missing (and this was Digital's fatal flaw) and that it didn't have the small signal resolution. That's why Mojo, Hugo and Dave are very good.

I'm not saying that Dave has the resolution of the very best analog, but with the Chord ADC, and then the Blu upscale, it has been reported that is solves that gap.

But the emotional content is there, and the Mojo/Hugo/Dave have  a big soundstage, like vinyl, and the sounds float out of the speakers, just as it should...

With my Dave/Hugo/Mojo and Tidal, the sound quality is very good, and access to tens of thousands of albums....

 

you are chord seller?

joerand posted:

analogmusic posted:

 "one of the unique"

Oxymoron police anyone?

his name should be" chordmusic" or "digitalmusic"....

Keler Pierre posted:

joerand posted:

analogmusic posted:

 "one of the unique"

Oxymoron police anyone?

his name should be" chordmusic" or "digitalmusic"....

I had thought to suggest there was a name conflict, however, music is analogue not digital - digital is only an information carrying format to convey it...

Innocent Bystander posted:

Keler Pierre posted:

joerand posted:

analogmusic posted:

 "one of the unique"

Oxymoron police anyone?

his name should be" chordmusic" or "digitalmusic"....

I had thought to suggest there was a name conflict, however, music is analogue not digital - digital is only an information carrying format to convey it...

yes, it's true....

Keler Pierre

I have no relationship with Chord in any way, other than owning and enjoying music on a Chord Mojo and Chord Dave.

My point about all this still remains, Vinyl is nice, nostalgic and romantic, but it's the past.

I had similar observations when I compared Linn Klimax Steamer to their Lp12. I preferred the KDS streamer . Maybe it gave away A little   sound quality to the LP12, but you got so much more music on Tidal through KDS and then also the space optimization software... and it sounds great

I think some of the Linn guys who got the latest Katalyst upgrade and also own LP12 feel the gap is now very small between both in terms of engagement and enjoying music.

analogmusic posted:

Keler Pierre

 

 

My point about all this still remains, Vinyl is nice, nostalgic and romantic, but it's the past.

 

Yeah right 

Vinyl sales topped three million last year, the highest UK total in 25 years.
More than 3.2 million records were sold in 2016, a rise of 53% on the previous year, according to the BPI, which represents the music industry.

analogmusic posted:

Keler Pierre

 

I have no relationship with Chord in any way, other than owning and enjoying music on a Chord Mojo and Chord Dave.

My point about all this still remains, Vinyl is nice, nostalgic and romantic, but it's the past.

I had similar observations when I compared Linn Klimax Steamer to their Lp12. I preferred the KDS streamer . Maybe it gave away A little   sound quality to the LP12, but you got so much more music on Tidal through KDS and then also the space optimization software... and it sounds great

I think some of the Linn guys who got the latest Katalyst upgrade and also own LP12 feel the gap is now very small between both in terms of engagement and enjoying music.

linn full lp12 is the beginning of high end turntables...vinyl sound quality can go much much more....  I had the pleasure to hear acoustic signature ascona and also sme30/12 with lyra etna , with high end phono stage i don't remember which:  i have never heard digital sounding so good, never, and i have heard some very expensive digital sources in recent years.

Jonn posted:

analogmusic posted:

Keler Pierre

 

 

My point about all this still remains, Vinyl is nice, nostalgic and romantic, but it's the past.

 

Yeah right 

Vinyl sales topped three million last year, the highest UK total in 25 years.
More than 3.2 million records were sold in 2016, a rise of 53% on the previous year, according to the BPI, which represents the music industry.

Vinyl has indeed become popular recently - but it appears to be far more of a "fashion" or "lifestyle" reason than anything to do woth sound quality. The test of that I suppose is, what has been selling most to play them on: Linn upwards turntables, or things like the Ion (~£80) with USB output so you can play through your computer audio system?

if the whole chain was analog, then yes, but modern  record pressing plants, - there is some kind of DAC built into the pressing machine, and it doesn't matter what hi-end turnable you are listening to, if the Vinyl came from that kind of digital source, then you are at the mercy of that Dac that was built into the Vinyl making machine. Yes it might be a 192/24 bit master.... but then so is MQA on tidal. 

I'd much rather have the digital interpretation on a Naim streamer, Linn  streamer or my trusted Chord Mojo and Dave  or a Naim CD555/CDX2 .... 

For Vinyl to make a real comeback the prices of records need to drop to around 10 GBP/10 Euro/15 US dollars.

The audio quest Dragonfly Black DAC 99 USD or red 199 USD, well it can now decode Tidal MQA at full 192/24 resolution. 

Don't get me wrong, records will always sound great on a hi-end machine, but I can't be bothered to faff around with that anymore.

It's a personal thing, those with extensive LP collections, still much enjoyment to be had from those on their hi-end decks, but digital has caught up. 

Also listening to old AC/DC albums  - that particular song "highway to hell" - on the original recording, it's very nice, and analog, but romantic, that is not how drums sound in real life.... 

The latest live album of theirs (live at river plate 2012), play the same song (highway to hell) , and that sound is much closer to real life.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Jonn posted:

analogmusic posted:

Keler Pierre

 

 

My point about all this still remains, Vinyl is nice, nostalgic and romantic, but it's the past.

 

Yeah right 

Vinyl sales topped three million last year, the highest UK total in 25 years.
More than 3.2 million records were sold in 2016, a rise of 53% on the previous year, according to the BPI, which represents the music industry.

Vinyl has indeed become popular recently - but it appears to be far more of a "fashion" or "lifestyle" reason than anything to do woth sound quality. The test of that I suppose is, what has been selling most to play them on: Linn upwards turntables, or things like the Ion (~£80) with USB output so you can play through your computer audio system?

What evidence do you have that the recent popularity of vinyl is due to "fashion" or "lifestyle" ?  In fact if you do the research most commentators say it is due to better sound quality and the desire to own physical media as opposed to downloads.

Jonn posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Jonn posted:

analogmusic posted:

Keler Pierre

 

 

My point about all this still remains, Vinyl is nice, nostalgic and romantic, but it's the past.

 

Yeah right 

Vinyl sales topped three million last year, the highest UK total in 25 years.
More than 3.2 million records were sold in 2016, a rise of 53% on the previous year, according to the BPI, which represents the music industry.

Vinyl has indeed become popular recently - but it appears to be far more of a "fashion" or "lifestyle" reason than anything to do woth sound quality. The test of that I suppose is, what has been selling most to play them on: Linn upwards turntables, or things like the Ion (~£80) with USB output so you can play through your computer audio system?

What evidence do you have that the recent popularity of vinyl is due to "fashion" or "lifestyle" ?  In fact if you do the research most commentators say it is due to better sound quality and the desire to own physical media as opposed to downloads.

100% agree!   yes, there is also fashion but the vast majority of audiophiles specialists agree that vinyl sound , in absolute terms, is better yet. Perhaps in a few years it will change, but not yet...

As for the lp itself, there were bad recordings too, so sometimes digital remaster can sound better, but it is rare...  To end, vinyl sounds best on original pressings or true analog remasters, not on cheap cd transfer vinyl for 10GBP.  In this last case, better here the digital version.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Jonn posted:

analogmusic posted:

Keler Pierre

 

 

My point about all this still remains, Vinyl is nice, nostalgic and romantic, but it's the past.

 

Yeah right 

Vinyl sales topped three million last year, the highest UK total in 25 years.
More than 3.2 million records were sold in 2016, a rise of 53% on the previous year, according to the BPI, which represents the music industry.

Vinyl has indeed become popular recently - but it appears to be far more of a "fashion" or "lifestyle" reason than anything to do woth sound quality. The test of that I suppose is, what has been selling most to play them on: Linn upwards turntables, or things like the Ion (~£80) with USB output so you can play through your computer audio system?

All valid Arguments, I remembered many moons ago, before the Digital age of Streaming!

The Analog TT vs The Digital CD

Not to suggest, that my path was superior, but to show how things change with time.

Linn/Naim Era ~ TT Main Source

Thorens > LP 12 ~ {1973 - 1993} 

The Digital CD enter the Market at an relative low price, I picked up an Denon CDP for abot $500 USD, taking a guess, tail end of 2 decade era of the TT. { 1990 }

Had to take it back, immediately, thin, harsh, digital at its worst!

Robbed a Bank, and picked up an Philips, just sold it a couple of years ago, Beautiful deck!

Optical lens never played out, like my 2008 Cdx2, but it hit me up for $1000.

That wasn't cheap for a CDP in 1990!

But back to my two decade theory:

 The Analog TT & The Digital CDP 

Denon>Philips>Ghenki { 1993 - 2013 }

Linn stopped producing it's 20K CDP 10 years back, I took the hint, and sold Linn's 2nd tier CDP.

I would imagine, anyone that bought into digital streaming within that two decade range, has been a victim of the upgrade game!

The Age of Digital Streaming!

Relatively inexpensive, mojo, hugo, just to Naim a few.

With technology and new advancements in quantum mechanics, (MY) digital Streaming Era has been reduced in half:

The Digital Streaming Era ~ {2013 - 2023}

If one bought in on the tail end of the CDP Era, not to bad, but the Golden Extreme would kick in @ 2018 or later!

In summary, it would be nice to own an 25K LP 12, an 20K CD 555, and an inexpensive 13K NDS, but not practical for the Norm!

Hence, I sold My LP 12, and slumming it with Cdx2, MM, Airport Extreme, Airport Express, Android phone, Remote II application> controlling all three Systems, whilst lying  in Bed!

Allante93!

PS. Just sharing information, that's all!

Just my take, but I do miss my LP 12, but the direct contact of an 3K Cartridge, Radikal power supply,etc.. wood still introduce a noise floor, that is not to my liking!

Don't get me wrong, although vinyl albums sound better than digital I still buy more CDs than vinyl due to the big difference in cost, especially for new albums. I also tend to listen more to ripped CDs than vinyl, mainly due to convenience and greater number (c600 vinyl albums and twice as many ripped CDs plus a few hires downloads).

Agree that the sound of digital music is very good now and I can't say I miss playing vinyl all the time as the two formats are just as enjoyable.

If I was starting from scratch and hadn't got a large collection of vinyl albums I probably wouldn't have invested so much in my record deck but certainly don't regret it due to the quality of sound it produces.

Jonn posted:

analogmusic posted:

Keler Pierre

 

 

My point about all this still remains, Vinyl is nice, nostalgic and romantic, but it's the past.

 

Yeah right 

Vinyl sales topped three million last year, the highest UK total in 25 years.
More than 3.2 million records were sold in 2016, a rise of 53% on the previous year, according to the BPI, which represents the music industry.

CD sales still fifteen times that of vinyl (47.3 million), despite a fall in sales of 11%. Time will tell, but I cannot personally see vinyl ever overtaking CDs or streaming and becoming mainstream.  What would be interesting to see are the recent sales figures of the high end turntable manufacturers compared with those of streamers of similar quality. I'd lay a few quid on the former not getting within 5% of the latter. Linn, SME, Vertere etc. will always have a small niche appeal to audiophiles, but not much more. Once the current crop of ageing enthusiasts have shuffled off I doubt there will be many youngsters to replace them. As the current fad for nostalgic vinyl peaks, as it undoubtedly will within 5-10 years, vinyl will die a natural death. Purely my own opinion of course, I'm sure there will be the usual suspects in opposition!

Jonn posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Jonn posted:

analogmusic posted:

Keler Pierre

 

 

My point about all this still remains, Vinyl is nice, nostalgic and romantic, but it's the past.

 

Yeah right 

Vinyl sales topped three million last year, the highest UK total in 25 years.
More than 3.2 million records were sold in 2016, a rise of 53% on the previous year, according to the BPI, which represents the music industry.

Vinyl has indeed become popular recently - but it appears to be far more of a "fashion" or "lifestyle" reason than anything to do woth sound quality. The test of that I suppose is, what has been selling most to play them on: Linn upwards turntables, or things like the Ion (~£80) with USB output so you can play through your computer audio system?

What evidence do you have that the recent popularity of vinyl is due to "fashion" or "lifestyle" ?  In fact if you do the research most commentators say it is due to better sound quality and the desire to own physical media as opposed to downloads.

Well, in relation to the recent resurgence, mine is only an impression, not a formal study, and is based on 'evidence' in the form of several of my sons' friends, and a niece, who all think it is 'cool' to have vinyl (the Ion being the  turntable one of them was proudly showing off, playing through a computer surround sound system otherwise used for gaming). I have also seen a Which? Magazine report that sited the most popular record player brands as Crosley, GPO and ION, and seen similar things in fashion clothing store displays, often with 'retro' styling looking like record players from the 1960s..

Timmo1341 posted:

Jonn posted:

analogmusic posted:

Keler Pierre

 

 

My point about all this still remains, Vinyl is nice, nostalgic and romantic, but it's the past.

 

Yeah right 

Vinyl sales topped three million last year, the highest UK total in 25 years.
More than 3.2 million records were sold in 2016, a rise of 53% on the previous year, according to the BPI, which represents the music industry.

CD sales still fifteen times that of vinyl (47.3 million), despite a fall in sales of 11%. Time will tell, but I cannot personally see vinyl ever overtaking CDs or streaming and becoming mainstream.  What would be interesting to see are the recent sales figures of the high end turntable manufacturers compared with those of streamers of similar quality. I'd lay a few quid on the former not getting within 5% of the latter. Linn, SME, Vertere etc. will always have a small niche appeal to audiophiles, but not much more. Once the current crop of ageing enthusiasts have shuffled off I doubt there will be many youngsters to replace them. As the current fad for nostalgic vinyl peaks, as it undoubtedly will within 5-10 years, vinyl will die a natural death. Purely my own opinion of course, I'm sure there will be the usual suspects in opposition!

you don't know of what you are talking sorry. Your argument was already present 30 years ago, people saying cd is the future and vinyl is dead, and bla-bla-bla....listen first to a high end vinyl set up, from the turntable to the arm and cartridge and the phono stage, you will change your mind. And i am not talking about the lp12....

Apparently for £50 you can have a nice shiny new one.. this particular model being a portable design...