Love my CDX2. But what about vinyl??

analogmusic posted:

oh absolutely it's a personal thing, as we've seen with interconnects.

Some like Sarum Super Aray next to Superlumina, some like Superlumina compared to Sarum T, some like Vertere (I do, personally), whatever works musically.

 

I would assert strongly that, whilst personal preference has a part to play, synergy is a far stronger influence here. Many times, with our regular gatherings, you find that there is a general consensus about what works & what doesn't in a particular system, the DAVE vs. QBD being a classic example. I've no doubt that in a different, perhaps less ruthless, system to mine I might well prefer DAVE, and I'm willing to bet, should you hear the two DACs in my system you'd draw the same conclusion as the rest of us.

As many of us use different speakers, we don't hear the same things, even if the Naim amplifiers are voiced similarly.

Then your active system will not sound like a passive one.

This could explain the many opposing reviews about SuperLumina vs Chord Sarum for instance?

tonym posted

 

........perhaps less ruthless, system to mine I might well prefer DAVE, and I'm willing to bet, should you hear the two DACs in my system you'd draw the same conclusion as the rest of us.

Please excuse the off topic question!

Tonym, from one Aktiv guy to another!

In your experiences with Active Systems, during the post DR Era:

SC vs SCDR on Snaxo 362

&

552 vs 552 DR

Thanks in Advance!

Allante93!

PS. Trying to decide on 2012 SCDR vs 2012 SC 

A lot of this comes down to the fact that we're living organisms not computer test rigs and like others of a certain age on this forum we need to accept that our ears and brains are not what they were in our teens and twenties. I for one suffer from tinnitus which is unobtrusive on some days but a right pain on others. I also have a dip in the 8khz region in my left ear. Frankly I don't think I get anywhere near the 12khz roll-off of my NAT01 and gave up trying to hear microscopic differences a while back! I still enjoy what I can hear though

Keler Pierre posted:

i found a recent review of comparaison of: dave-hugo- berkeley reference dac and don't remember the last two.  The reviewer found the dave very good, but little harsh on voices vs the berkeley...

John Atkinson, on june stereophile, preferred the meridian ultra dac, more realistic true tones colors and decay of notes.

Martin Colloms preferred the nds/555dr to chord dave: nds was more dynamic and had more prat.

To end, dave is a very good dac, yes. the best of all: no.  better as high end vinyl: absolutely not.

I've never heard any of the current crop of high end vinyl above standard LP12: I presume there are differences between them, too, with some possibly preferred by some reviewers, and some by others? If so, none is absolutely the best.

Similarly I haven't heard the other high end DACs quoted, and assume that yes, indeed there will be differences, and some systems will be better suited to some DACs over others, which in part will depend on system and user preferences. But Dave, and possibly some or all of these others, and, I contend, even lowly Hugo, make music that can be every bit as involving as vinyl. I believe.

For me, the sound that now can be achieved by good digital mean that the limitations of vinyl outweigh its all-analogue signal path (assuming recorded in analogue) and somehow I doubt any high end turntable can remove the surface noise or restore the dynamic range. But of course, others will prefer the colouration of analogue, if that is not too strong a word, just as some prefer the colouration of various other bits of kit, whether that be a particular 'house sound' or a particular style of speaker. And as others have said there's nothing srong with that.

As an aside, whatever happened to direct cut disks that were all the rage in the 80s? Are they still produced? I've heard no mention recently, but they were supposed to be the pinnacle of vinyl.

analogmusic posted:

i think the record companies realised - they can make some decent profits for vinyl sales, so it is worth selling. and it sounds good (even if it came from a digital source), so the customer is happy to buy it.

But hope they lower the prices back to 10 GBP per album.

I can't see the point of buying new vinyl when there is plenty of excellent charity shop classical vinyl to buy. The second hand market won't be in the statistics either. I'd doubt new vinyl will hold its price, even if one is lucky enough to get a good pressing. With good CD replay the stuff I can't get on vinyl I'd just as soon buy on CD. Second hand CDs are mostly very good and cheap.

Old vinyl with a decent cleaning machine like any from Loricraft (PRC4 in my case) gives me top notch replay using L'Art du Son cleaning fluid. Terry from Loricraft has some other solutions for more difficult gunge such as from the release agent or lacquer breakdown.

I seldom notice surface noise now all the power cords, ICs and speaker cables are tuned. This is because surface noise (it resembles a square wave) is exacerbated by not having full bandwidth within the audio frequency spectrum.  Rega RP10/ Aphelion/ Aria/ with modest Rega Couple 2 IC is as good as many LP 12 systems costing much more. I also would not want the frustration of getting a Superline working. The right power cord for the Aria (in my case Isotek Optimum) drops the background to neglible levels and the Aria is easy to configure for Rega cartridges. 

I can't face getting a streaming solution working and doubt the SQ will be better without spending silly money.

Phil

I've got the review of the Dave on stereophile, I don't think it says John Atkinson prefers the Meridian DAC, which by the way was playing a MQA 192/24 bit file.

As for Colloms,  apparently, he chooses to use a passive Allegri preamp with a Naim power amp. 

where is the Naim carefully designed Star earthing gone in this configuration?

Innocent Bystander posted:

Keler Pierre posted:

i found a recent review of comparaison of: dave-hugo- berkeley reference dac and don't remember the last two.  The reviewer found the dave very good, but little harsh on voices vs the berkeley...

John Atkinson, on june stereophile, preferred the meridian ultra dac, more realistic true tones colors and decay of notes.

Martin Colloms preferred the nds/555dr to chord dave: nds was more dynamic and had more prat.

To end, dave is a very good dac, yes. the best of all: no.  better as high end vinyl: absolutely not.

I've never heard any of the current crop of high end vinyl above standard LP12: I presume there are differences between them, too, with some possibly preferred by some reviewers, and some by others? If so, none is absolutely the best.

Similarly I haven't heard the other high end DACs quoted, and assume that yes, indeed there will be differences, and some systems will be better suited to some DACs over others, which in part will depend on system and user preferences. But Dave, and possibly some or all of these others, and, I contend, even lowly Hugo, make music that can be every bit as involving as vinyl. I believe.

For me, the sound that now can be achieved by good digital mean that the limitations of vinyl outweigh its all-analogue signal path (assuming recorded in analogue) and somehow I doubt any high end turntable can remove the surface noise or restore the dynamic range. But of course, others will prefer the colouration of analogue, if that is not too strong a word, just as some prefer the colouration of various other bits of kit, whether that be a particular 'house sound' or a particular style of speaker. And as others have said there's nothing srong with that.

As an aside, whatever happened to direct cut disks that were all the rage in the 80s? Are they still produced? I've heard no mention recently, but they were supposed to be the pinnacle of vinyl.

what are vinyl coloration for you is true sound for other, i am in this last camp as Michael Fremer, Jonathan Valin, Art Dudley, Harry Pearson, Ken Kessler, Paul Messenger...if you know them and read their reviews on stereophile, hifi news and absolute sound....all reputed audio specialists.

I guess you have never heard better than entry level linn or rega....i guess only.

Hear your hi-end turntable with digitally recorded vinyl? Hmmm, and so listen to the DAC that created the Vinyl master? 

Hmmm... not so interesting for me.

If you have AC/DC please listen to the old Highway to hell album and the coloration of analogue is very audible, attractive, romantic, and pleasing to my ears.

But it (the roll-off and softening of high frequencies) is still a coloration.

As some say though, with age, maybe it isn't audible anymore 

Filipe posted:

analogmusic posted:

i think the record companies realised - they can make some decent profits for vinyl sales, so it is worth selling. and it sounds good (even if it came from a digital source), so the customer is happy to buy it.

But hope they lower the prices back to 10 GBP per album.

I can't see the point of buying new vinyl when there is plenty of excellent charity shop classical vinyl to buy. The second hand market won't be in the statistics either. I'd doubt new vinyl will hold its price, even if one is lucky enough to get a good pressing. With good CD replay the stuff I can't get on vinyl I'd just as soon buy on CD. Second hand CDs are mostly very good and cheap.

Old vinyl with a decent cleaning machine like any from Loricraft (PRC4 in my case) gives me top notch replay using L'Art du Son cleaning fluid. Terry from Loricraft has some other solutions for more difficult gunge such as from the release agent or lacquer breakdown.

I seldom notice surface noise now all the power cords, ICs and speaker cables are tuned. This is because surface noise (it resembles a square wave) is exacerbated by not having full bandwidth within the audio frequency spectrum.  Rega RP10/ Aphelion/ Aria/ with modest Rega Couple 2 IC is as good as many LP 12 systems costing much more. I also would not want the frustration of getting a Superline working. The right power cord for the Aria (in my case Isotek Optimum) drops the background to neglible levels and the Aria is easy to configure for Rega cartridges. 

I can't face getting a streaming solution working and doubt the SQ will be better without spending silly money.

Phil

i totally agree that rega p10/aphelion/aria is as good as full lp12, for half the price. The price of the full lp12 became ridiculous....like 3000 dollars for a metal subchassis....For 20k i can buy an sme20/3, avid acutus sp, kuzma xl, ...a big step further...

As for new vinyls, they are done from digital transfer on cheap material...no interest!

only mobile fidelity or analog productions, new, but a bit expensive....

The same Fremer - who  reviewed CD555 on stereophile ? (he did concede it was the best CD player he ever heard)

For the life of me, whenever I listen to CD555, I start to understand how different we hear things, it's a massively involving CD player with PRAT and groove. I'll take a CD555 over any turntable, any day.

and shines in a all Naim system with a hi-line that's how it ships, not how he heard his with his Tara labs interconnect 

Allante93 posted:

tonym posted

 

........perhaps less ruthless, system to mine I might well prefer DAVE, and I'm willing to bet, should you hear the two DACs in my system you'd draw the same conclusion as the rest of us.

Please excuse the off topic question!

Tonym, from one Aktiv guy to another!

In your experiences with Active Systems, during the post DR Era:

SC vs SCDR on Snaxo 362

&

552 vs 552 DR

Thanks in Advance!

Allante93!

PS. Trying to decide on 2012 SCDR vs 2012 SC 

 

Hi Allante,

I guess the 552DR produces the most profound effect on sound quality, but then it really is worthwhile getting your SC DRd. Both are very worthwhile upgrades.  Just get them both done, you know you want to!

analogmusic posted:

I've got the review of the Dave on stereophile, I don't think it says John Atkinson prefers the Meridian DAC, which by the way was playing a MQA 192/24 bit file.

As for Colloms,  apparently, he chooses to use a passive Allegri preamp with a Naim power amp. 

where is the Naim carefully designed Star earthing gone in this configuration?

for john atkinson review, he wrote that the meridian dac was going a little further than chord dave, near the end of the review...

Martin used passive allegri preamp with both nds and dave. It is even more detrimental for nds, without the connection to a naim preamp....

I don't know how he connected the Dave to the Allegri, and also the NDS.

Then which cable from the Allegri preamp to his Naim power amp?

Without such information/diclosure about interconnects, such comparisons/reviews are not very interesting to me.

My own Dave sounds different each time I change the interconnect. 

 My 282/250 sounds different with  Vertere DIN/XLR (much better for me) than the Naim supplied one, and well... it is a different sound than what Naim intended.

analogmusic posted:

Hear your hi-end turntable with digitally recorded vinyl? Hmmm, and so listen to the DAC that created the Vinyl master? 

Hmmm... not so interesting for me.

If you have AC/DC please listen to the old Highway to hell album and the coloration of analogue is very audible, attractive, romantic, and pleasing to my ears.

But it (the roll-off and softening of high frequencies) is still a coloration.

As some say though, with age, maybe it isn't audible anymore 

yes, you are right, some digital remasters are better than original vinyl pressings.  But it is minority.  I have around 600 lps and could compare about 30 records vs the same albums on 24/96 or dsd format: sorry, but for me, the sound with my sme20/sme5/kiseki blue ns/ ear 912 phono is more open, more dynamic, with better extended top ends and more true and natural tone colors( vs same downloads on nds/555dr).

analogmusic posted:

The same Fremer - who  reviewed CD555 on stereophile ? (he did concede it was the best CD player he ever heard)

For the life of me, whenever I listen to CD555, I start to understand how different we hear things, it's a massively involving CD player with PRAT and groove. I'll take a CD555 over any turntable, any day.

and shines in a all Naim system with a hi-line that's how it ships, not how he heard his with his Tara labs interconnect 

but he always prefer his vinyl set up vs all digital players he reviewed. I am reading his reviews since 15 years.

ps: i am 50 years old...and had always had excellent ears....

in french language, we say to this type of conversation: " un concours de bites".....i surrender, i am tired. Time to go to the sauna!

Je comprends, vous avez une affection avec le Vinyl, a certain Je ne sais quoi.

enjoy the sauna, I'm enjoying the music 

By the way I'm listening to David Hallyday, the debut album, 

on Vinyl 

Vive la difference 

 

but he always prefer his vinyl set up vs all digital players he reviewed. I am reading his reviews since 15 years.

 

ps: i am 50 years old...and had always had excellent ears....

and I find interesting that Fremer never gets to review any Chord Dac.

Mostly done by John Atkinson... whom somehow, well, je ne sais pas pourquoi, but the overall impression of his reviews.... how I hear a Chord DAC and how he hears it is different. 

Stereophile did somehow slip one positive one through with the review of the Blu transport and Dac 64

"Oh yeah—and it flat-out rocked."

"To my mind, the Choral Blu and DAC64 are, together, the CD player we music lovers have long prayed for"

One very, very significant factor in seeking to compare specific recordings on LP vs CD is that the mastering is very often not the same, and that renders the whole comparison useless. If any CD has less dynamic range than it's LP counterpart then that is definitely the mastering, as even 16 bit has a greater usable dynamic range than LP - and so many modern CDs seem to be deliberately compressed, at least pop/rock ones (maybe due to the so-called the 'loudness wars').

the mastering cannot be the same, as there is massive EQ applied to a Vinyl pressing (because the grooves cannot cope with a full bandwidth signal and certainly not the full digital dynamic range), and the EQ is reversed when played back through the phono stage 

another example of coloration, compression, romanticism, and analogue sound.

analogmusic posted:

the mastering cannot be the same, as there is massive EQ applied to a Vinyl pressing (because the grooves cannot cope with a full bandwidth signal and certainly not the full digital dynamic range), and the EQ is reversed when played back through the phono stage 

another example of coloration, compression, romanticism, and analogue sound.

I am no expert on mastering and pressing, but Is the RIAA eq not simply applied at the cutting stage fed from a tape master? Compression to the required dynamic range could be then or at the mastering.

analogmusic posted:

the mastering cannot be the same, as there is massive EQ applied to a Vinyl pressing (because the grooves cannot cope with a full bandwidth signal and certainly not the full digital dynamic range), and the EQ is reversed when played back through the phono stage 

another example of coloration, compression, romanticism, and analogue sound.

Yet, it’s still sounds better than digital.

You don’t need a 20k turntable to know this is true. I use a Mojo, SBT and Nas, which cost about £900, no way is it as good as my turntable which cost about the same (second hand), In fact the mojo doesn’t come close to the CDS2 I used to own.

I do agree with you on one thing, Chord dacs are very sensitive to the type of analogue cable used, the mojo certainly is. Not in the usual way, where one cable will be excellent, another cable not so good but listenable, another cable will be good but different but still listenable. With the mojo I’ve managed to find a cable that is very good, one cable that is not very good or pleasant to listen too, and one cable that is diabolically bad and unlistenable.

analogmusic posted:

the mastering cannot be the same, as there is massive EQ applied to a Vinyl pressing (because the grooves cannot cope with a full bandwidth signal and certainly not the full digital dynamic range), and the EQ is reversed when played back through the phono stage 

another example of coloration, compression, romanticism, and analogue sound.

I don't know what [@mention:61965734410701809] thinks of this off the topic stuff. He likes his CDX2 and his NDS, and wants to have suggestions about TTs that might produce a wow sound as well. I am just amazed how good vinyl can sound when you get your system right including record cleaning. I think that is all the OP wanted help with.

I made a few suggestion in a post a few hours ago that some agree with enough to like. None of us know what the music sounded like when it was recorded. I look for a wow factor from all my music not just something adjusted for a few recordings I like. Most recordings probably sounded good in the recording environment. The ones that don't on replay are usually demanding more of one's equipment. The last 10% improvement of the system probably takes 90% of the effort and may not take too much extra cash. Your dealer may get a bit miffed when you reject stuff you loan, but they usually get good profits on the boxes.

Phil

and how much did the CDS2 cost.

Not 400 GBP that Mojo costs.

Fairer fight is Hugo with CDS2. Jury still out on that one.