Love my CDX2. But what about vinyl??

yeti42 posted:

I'm not sure surface noise is reduced by the phono stage so much as you attension isn't drawn to it so much in competition with the music. There's a similar effect with poor recordings in that though you can hear the recording isn't the best it's faults don't spoil a good performance to the extent that it is unlistenable. There's a lot of HiFi out there that only serves to tell you how crap your recordings are.

I agree 100%, that's the point I was trying to make earlier. 

The David Wilson's Seminar !

As to my feelings, I don't buy into the Great Divide!

Personally, If I had the Cash:

Loaded LP 12

CD 555

NDS

The New Paradigm, depending on Music & Mood!

I sold my LP 12, for financial reasons, plus I needed the funds to secure my 2nd hand Naim System:

Cdx2>282>HCDR>3 x 250.2> Briks

Had the Briks since 1993, 3K USD, was a Stinger!

Even that was 2nd Hand! 7K @ the time!

So no my feelings weren't hurt, but words can be rather coarse at times!

My approach is what my Father taught me:

If You Like It, I Love It!

I'm to busy try to do me!

The young folk over here, equivalency to my father approach:

You Do You, And I Will Do Me!

Allante93!

PS. I would imagine Vertere's new TT, with their 36K Tone Arm could arouse an old geezer, like myself! LOL.....

I have 400 to 500 LPs, in all possible degrees of conditions. Even the oldest ones are still playable without skips. An occasional loud TOCK! in the worst cases. When I bought my first discs, a HiFi turntable (Thorens or the AR one) was out of reach for most families, and we had one of those rigid pieces of luggage that folded out into a stereo player.

Now, not to lose the taste for my old records, I am using a Pioneer PL112D. I have often heard much better players, and I have a friend who's a complete devote to vintage vinyl and has a Garrard 301 with a SME 12" and a heavily modded Denon DL103. And yet, the gap between that and even his rega Apollo seems hard to fill for me. I wonder how much money, time and knowledge I'd need to put together a vinyl system able to outperform my CDX2-SN.

So, perhaps I'll buy something better than my PL112, but I don't think that spending more than €250/300 for a TT, plus a decent phono stage, has much sense.

Max_B posted:

I have 400 to 500 LPs, in all possible degrees of conditions. Even the oldest ones are still playable without skips. An occasional loud TOCK! in the worst cases. When I bought my first discs, a HiFi turntable (Thorens or the AR one) was out of reach for most families, and we had one of those rigid pieces of luggage that folded out into a stereo player.

Now, not to lose the taste for my old records, I am using a Pioneer PL112D. I have often heard much better players, and I have a friend who's a complete devote to vintage vinyl and has a Garrard 301 with a SME 12" and a heavily modded Denon DL103. And yet, the gap between that and even his rega Apollo seems hard to fill for me. I wonder how much money, time and knowledge I'd need to put together a vinyl system able to outperform my CDX2-SN.

So, perhaps I'll buy something better than my PL112, but I don't think that spending more than €250/300 for a TT, plus a decent phono stage, has much sense.

i don't know how you can outperform your cdx2 with 300eur turntable/ arm / cartridge....perhaps a used rega p25 in good condition, thorens 125 in also good condition....good luck, but i respect your choice.  I had before cdx2 and rega p9, with stageline and rega exact cartridge, the rega was for me a little more musical. But cdx2/ xps2 was perhaps better, on dynamic side and urgency of music.

This proves that posts are not always read carefully, or carefully written. If it's the latter case, I apologize.

I never wrote that I expected a €250/300 TT to outperform my CDX2; I said, instead, that in spite of having heard costly and sophisticated vinyl systems (or that was implied) I still prefer a good to very good CDP. I doubt that I could get from my LPs a sound able to make me forget my CDX2 unless I spent at least €2500 onward. My assumption is that to make vinyl sound as it could, one should spend much more than for the equivalent good sound in CD.

On the other hand, forums are full of people who swear that their MacMini/cheapDAC system outperforms any Naim one, so it seems that absolutes have no place in the audio discussion.

My bottom line was that I wouldn't agree to upgrade my PL112D more than with a €250/300 something, possibly with a floating base. I'd be content with that sound, however good it was. Hope it is clearer now.

Max

Max_B posted:

This proves that posts are not always read carefully, or carefully written. If it's the latter case, I apologize.

I never wrote that I expected a €250/300 TT to outperform my CDX2; I said, instead, that in spite of having heard costly and sophisticated vinyl systems (or that was implied) I still prefer a good to very good CDP. I doubt that I could get from my LPs a sound able to make me forget my CDX2 unless I spent at least €2500 onward. My assumption is that to make vinyl sound as it could, one should spend much more than for the equivalent good sound in CD.

On the other hand, forums are full of people who swear that their MacMini/cheapDAC system outperforms any Naim one, so it seems that absolutes have no place in the audio discussion.

My bottom line was that I wouldn't agree to upgrade my PL112D more than with a €250/300 something, possibly with a floating base. I'd be content with that sound, however good it was. Hope it is clearer now.

Max

 

i have effectively not understood you rightly first. So all is clear now. granite base would cost you less even...i have it under my turntable.

And I've gone the other way, faced with a lack of space for vinyl I've sidelined the CDX2 for a Core and a Rega DAC  and upgraded the vinyl player. the space vacated by the CDs will hold more vinyl and the Rega will do for digital until I find a last DAC or streamer or whatever, preferably without poluting the clean stack with a power supply.

yeti42 posted:

And I've gone the other way, faced with a lack of space for vinyl I've sidelined the CDX2 for a Core and a Rega DAC  and upgraded the vinyl player. the space vacated by the CDs will hold more vinyl and the Rega will do for digital until I find a last DAC or streamer or whatever, preferably without poluting the clean stack with a power supply.

Well, there's a lot of sense in that, as the analogue v digital arguments dont apply with CD v streaming, and streaming can do all that CD can without the potential errore and eventual failure due to mechanical drive, so there is less point in having CD and streaming, whereas  vinyl and digital are more different.

When it comes to vinyl playback I have found that the quality of vinyl both mastering and pressing have a huge impact on sound quality.  My system a mid level LP12/282/250 can sound phenomenal with the right LP an Analogue Productions, Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs , Music Matters or an original 1st press but some of my older Jamaican press reggae and even a depressing amount of modern reissues sound average at best. So be prepared to have to lay out anything between 25 - 50 pounds per LP to get the best of of your Record player.

Bob the Builder posted:

When it comes to vinyl playback I have found that the quality of vinyl both mastering and pressing have a huge impact on sound quality.  

I agree, and whether digital or vinyl the recording and mastering quality are paramount. The big difference being that digital removes the pressing and vinyl quality factor from the equation.

Bob the Builder posted:

When it comes to vinyl playback I have found that the quality of vinyl both mastering and pressing have a huge impact on sound quality.  My system a mid level LP12/282/250 can sound phenomenal with the right LP an Analogue Productions, Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs , Music Matters or an original 1st press but some of my older Jamaican press reggae and even a depressing amount of modern reissues sound average at best. So be prepared to have to lay out anything between 25 - 50 pounds per LP to get the best of of your Record player.

And as I pointed out based on my own experience, an original first press from, say, the '70s is no guarantee of being noise free. Why would first pressing be any different in terms of noise compared to subsequent pressings? Possibly (just a guess) quality, of which noise is a part, might deteriorate with the number pressed by a stamper as it gradually wears, if it does, but a first press could be the first disc or the nth off a stamper, and an nth pressing could use start with a new stamper.

Allante93 posted:

I Love My Cdx2, What about Vinyl?

Thought the following, might be interesting:

What is DMM-CD?

""A NEW FORMAT: THE STOCKFISCH DMM-CD/SACD

More and more music lovers are discovering the unique sound of a vinyl record. We have thought about whether it is possible just to make the sound creation factors of a vinyl record audible.

{A pressed record however has many artefacts arising from the vinyl pressing i.e. distortion, rumble, groove noise, vertical and lateral aberrations, clicks, etc. and other artefacts that are detrimental to a good sound.}

{Having said that, music lovers have already become accustomed to these disadvantages.}

We call our new production method "DMM-CD". With this solution, we can eradicate the aforementioned disadvantages of the pressed record - and yet still maintain the typical vinyl sound: ""

XRCD, K2-CD, SHM, HDCD, SACD/DSD, DMM-CD, HYBRIDS, or just good old Naim & Linn Mastering Techniques?

They're all 16/44.1 CDs. The mastering equipment differs or the disc material differs, but at the end of the day, the most important things are the mastering techniques employed and the tapes used.

Allante93!

PS. I Guess we are all on the same page!

 

Allante93 posted:

Allante93 posted:

Thought the following, might be interesting:

What is DMM-CD?

""A NEW FORMAT: THE STOCKFISCH DMM-CD/SACD

More and more music lovers are discovering the unique sound of a vinyl record. We have thought about whether it is possible just to make the sound creation factors of a vinyl record audible.

{A pressed record however has many artefacts arising from the vinyl pressing i.e. distortion, rumble, groove noise, vertical and lateral aberrations, clicks, etc. and other artefacts that are detrimental to a good sound.}

{Having said that, music lovers have already become accustomed to these disadvantages.}

We call our new production method "DMM-CD". With this solution, we can eradicate the aforementioned disadvantages of the pressed record - and yet still maintain the typical vinyl sound: ""

 

 

I had read that about DMM-CD and laughed.

Interesting, though, to know what vinyl lovers make of it - the sound, if that can be divorced from the physicality. If it "works", it would prove that digital is correctly rebuilding the signal, and that it is the colourations of the vinyl record-replay process that people like as well as the physicality. Of course, I am assuming here that people won't dislike the absence of the other artefacts described, which might not necessarily be the case.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Allante93 posted:

Allante93 posted:

Thought the following, might be interesting:

What is DMM-CD?

""A NEW FORMAT: THE STOCKFISCH DMM-CD/SACD

More and more music lovers are discovering the unique sound of a vinyl record. We have thought about whether it is possible just to make the sound creation factors of a vinyl record audible.

{A pressed record however has many artefacts arising from the vinyl pressing i.e. distortion, rumble, groove noise, vertical and lateral aberrations, clicks, etc. and other artefacts that are detrimental to a good sound.}

{Having said that, music lovers have already become accustomed to these disadvantages.}

We call our new production method "DMM-CD". With this solution, we can eradicate the aforementioned disadvantages of the pressed record - and yet still maintain the typical vinyl sound: ""

 

 

I had read that about DMM-CD and laughed.

Interesting, though, to know what vinyl lovers make of it - the sound, if that can be divorced from the physicality. If it "works", it would prove that digital is correctly rebuilding the signal, and that it is the colourations of the vinyl record-replay process that people like as well as the physicality. Of course, I am assuming here that people won't dislike the absence of the other artefacts described, which might not necessarily be the case.

i prefer colorations of vinyl, if even they are, to digital sterility....but i am not saying that i don't enjoy digital....

Innocent Bystander posted:

... a first press could be the first disc or the nth off a stamper, and an nth pressing could use start with a new stamper.

As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, stampers (prior to the 1980s and DMMs) were assigned an individual, sequential number in the dead wax, so OPs are from that era are identifiable. The issue is not to get the earliest pressing from a given stamper (no way to know), rather to get a pressing closest to the original mother, which is accountable.

joerand posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

When it comes to vinyl playback I have found that the quality of vinyl both mastering and pressing have a huge impact on sound quality.  

I agree, and whether digital or vinyl the recording and mastering quality are paramount. The big difference being that digital removes the pressing and vinyl quality factor from the equation.

Precious advises in this thread for me. Thank you very much!

Actually I had sold my CDX2 in 2015 and bought it once again in 2016 BECAUSE something lacked.. The idea had been to only use my new NDS and save the money for a better pre/end-combi. But it didn't work. In my case it seems to be an instance of preserving variability. Straemer + CD + TT. OH NO! I'd love to sell my CDX2 but it sounds too good! I'd love to sell my NDS but it is too convenient. And I'd love to only use a real good sounding TT (in fact two TT because as the only source only two TT make sense to me) but it's difficult to find one for less than 10k (including arm) I will check all the advises I got here but with the cost of superline/SC/cartridge/cleaning/lp it is a big fish! As I described before: hifi hell!?

I will start with the dps3 (thank you [@mention:46619465056634307]) and struggle through..

Best regards,

Andi

Andib posted:

Precious advises in this thread for me. Thank you very much!

Actually I had sold my CDX2 in 2015 and bought it once again in 2016 BECAUSE something lacked.. The idea had been to only use my new NDS and save the money for a better pre/end-combi. But it didn't work. In my case it seems to be an instance of preserving variability. Straemer + CD + TT. OH NO! I'd love to sell my CDX2 but it sounds too good! I'd love to sell my NDS but it is too convenient. And I'd love to only use a real good sounding TT (in fact two TT because as the only source only two TT make sense to me) but it's difficult to find one for less than 10k (including arm) I will check all the advises I got here but with the cost of superline/SC/cartridge/cleaning/lp it is a big fish! As I described before: hifi hell!?

I will start with the dps3 (thank you [@mention:46619465056634307]) and struggle through..

Best regards,

Andi

My exact feelings,saving money for kronos sparta 0,5

joerand posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

... a first press could be the first disc or the nth off a stamper, and an nth pressing could use start with a new stamper.

As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, stampers (prior to the 1980s and DMMs) were assigned an individual, sequential number in the dead wax, so OPs are from that era are identifiable. The issue is not to get the earliest pressing from a given stamper (no way to know), rather to get a pressing closest to the original mother, which is accountable.

Terry O'Sullivan of Loricraft/Garrard tells me the weather had a lot to do with the quality of the vinyl, with nice warm weather being better. One might ask why they didn't research the production factors better at the time, but I guess the vast majority of buyer's at the time didn't have equipment to justify the cost. The amazing thing is that modern equipment allows us to appreciate vinyl much more than in the days it was made. However, the professionism of the people in the industry coupled with the critical media kept standards up. 

The Loricraft Facebook page points to a review of his L'Art du Son Garrard 501. It puts the LP12 in perspective with its high torque direct drive solution coupled with a good power supply for the motor. Whilst not expecting miracles I eagerly await getting my Thorens 124 Mk 2 back remounted in one of his plinths. I am getting a new armboard for my RP8 arm and it will be interesting to see if it will be ok with my spare Rega Apheta cartridge. I doubt it will better my RP10/ Aphelion, but it will be fun to see the differences.

Phil

Hi Andi,

good luck with your search. I hope there is a setup you can wholly enjoy in your near future. Maybe it is the dps 3, which does the trick for me , maybe not. After reading Simon in Suffolks post, I am tempted to retrieve my old Koetsu from the drawer and put it back into action. There is a certain amount of similarity between it and the NDAC.

@Filipe The dps is built around a relatively high torque motor as well. Not a the Garrard or Thorens 124 level, but very different from Linn, Nottingham etc. One of the goals was a greater speed stability by overcoming the different levels of drag caused by the equally different groove modulations. On many decks a hard impulse, like one from a piano, can lead to a noticeable slowing for a tiny amount of time, leading to changes in pitch. Solo piano suffers most from this, at least to my ears. The dps is one of the better tables in this regard.

@Mulberry I may not have been precise enough about the L'Art du Son Garrard 501 TT, which uses a friction drive arrangement. Despite all the potential problem, supreme engineering with a commensurate price tag deliver the goods. Go to the Loricraft FB page and look for the post which is dated 17 Feb 2017. Its an interesting read.

Terry takes wonderful old Garrards built by hand in a garage (and occasionally a TD124 like mine build in a Swiss factory I guess) and brings them back to life. A visit to The Piggery near Lambourne is an experience. I have yet to return since the tidy up. SomehowTerry managed to find the parts my TD124 needed to bring it back closer to new after 50 years or more without a service. The mushrooms, long since perished, have been thrown away to be replaced by a different arrangement involving Terry's squash balls in a smaller version of one of his Garrard plinths. Richard Dane has also trodden this road with a Garrard.

Phil

joerand posted:

Skip posted:

One of the best things about the Superline is that the record noise is greatly reduced.  Don't ask me why.   I rarely buy or play anything but used records and the savings can amortize the cost of the Superline.

Interesting comment Skip as I've never heard similar statements regarding a high-end phonostage's ability to reduce record noise. My experience with carts that tend to minimize surface noise is that the overall dynamics are similarly reduced; squelching pops and clicks veils the sound.

My system changed in 2013 and has continue to improve.   I have kept the Verdier turntable, Moerch Transcriptor arm,  and TG Audio phono cable constant.  I first changed from a Joule-Electra tube amp to a Naim 552.  I then changed the phono stage from AHT Non Signature (predecessor to the Walker Audio stage) to Superline-SupercapDR.   Then I added a Fraim.  I finally have changed the cartridge from Lyra Helikon to the Kleos SL.  I recently changed from the Superline stock 500 plug to the 400 Z plug.  All are incremental improvements and taken together, they are remarkable.  We also rebuilt the Verdier using the Herbie's Audio Lab damping material.  Along about the Superline-SupercapDR, the surface noise receded and it has continued to subside.  It might be my hearing aids but I doubt it.

This is all my set up.  No dealer locally.  My dealer friend Tom Rothermel (former Naim dealer Vinyl Valet) set up the turntable last summer and it is very well done.   He also helped with the speaker placement.  

I have a Sarum Super on the CD 555 and would love to try a Sarum tonearm cable.

I am pretty confident on the noise reduction.  

 

Skip posted:

 I recently changed from the Superline stock 500 plug to the 400 Z plug. 

 

Can you please describe what it is and what it does?  

These are resistor plugs that are easily swapped in the Superline.  The stock 500 plug is a nice fit with my Kleos SL.  The 400 Z plug is a deep cryo'ed $500 Naim upgrade from AV Options which is said to be substantial.    It gives a more focused sound with has more grip in the bass and mid range, and less airiness.   It is basically a tone control.  I do believe the Z plug is well done but I need to develop more conviction to pound the table in its favor.      The AV Options were pretty insistent the 400 Z plug is the way to go with the Kleos SL.   It sounds great but I want to try a higher setting.

@SKIP:

To understand you correctly: We are not talking about the plugs delivered with the Superline?

Sorry for that question! I did find them. ��