SL DIN-XLR

Just about the same as from swapping to SL DIN-DIN and SL speaker cables

Also - once 'completed' the SL full loom somehow sounds more than a sum of its parts.

Little bit less but now i have to disconnect them to tell the real difference

When i put the speaker cables everything was different at the first second, din-xlr impact is not that kind but you will do it so no point of resisting just go buy them��

This is one instance where there is a very clear case of borrowing cables from a decent main dealer before deciding to commit.  These cables are quite a wedge, which you may need some convincing of before proceeding.

peter

Laxton Yeo posted:

My system currently has the SL from nds to 552dr and SL speaker cables. I'm thinking of making it a full loom by swapping out the din- xlr to SL between the 552 and the 500dr.
I've been reading some reviews in the forum and it seems the results are mixed. Should I go for the full loom? What are the improvements to expect with the SL din-xlr over the standard interconnects?

In the context of already having the SL source interconnect and speaker cables in a Naim system, then the DIN-XLR will work very well - once run-in - and in synergy with the other SL cables with what it adds, is what I found.

It can be a difficult subject to discuss, as people have developed strong opinions about what they found works for their system and tastes and I'd say nothing against that, other than you have to listen and decide for yourself.

I found each part of the SL loom added its own type of character to the overall end-result, but they all share a common musical design concept to my ears. The SL cables are almost shockingly neutral and fast - they seem to add very little character in terms of bass weight or smoothing any HF issue the system may have; they present an open-window that gets out of the way of the underlying system components capabilities. I find the bass clean, deep and powerful with great tunefulness, lucid open mid-band and seamless extended treble is what I get with SL full-loom. The overall effect is to let the musical rhythms really emerge and catch you and any complex playing rendered beautifully - and without swamping the vocalist styles and subtle inflections - it is even-handed and neutral.

The SL DIN-XLR I found took several months to really open-up and run-in so you need to demo one that is run-in and have patience with the new one to bed-in. The run-in demo one I heard was very 'real' sounding - it is hard to describe, as it did not impress with any smoothness or weight, just sounded like a pipe through which the music was now pouring whereas before it was being strangled and coloured by the stock-cable. I played an old Fleetwood Mac album and it just came to life and the artists were 'there' in an interesting way I'd never heard before, so that sold me on it.

Given I run a 3-way Active system this was expensive and I wanted to get it right! The new cable was initially thin, bright and 'reedy' sounding until it ran-in over a few weeks to good then over several more months to great and I'd say a year to outstanding. But if I'd formed an opinion straight from new I'd have looked elsewhere or not bothered.

The improvement over the standard cable is to free-up the sound from a cloying colouration and allow the full dynamics to emerge. Bass goes far deeper, so you may have to check your system install is happy with  loads more deep bass, as if it isn't then the usual thing that gets said is that the timing is poor - but it is not the cable at fault, but the fact the old system install was not up to what is now required. Again the extreme top-end is very extended and will not hide any system problems.

But once all is set-up correctly, as you should have anyway, the SL loom really sings and I've found it gives an immediacy and sense of life that is hard to beat - I've not heard it beaten. 

You can possibly spend a lot more to get better - I'd hope that was the case, but the SL loom works really well with Naim's design concept and systems. It was developed to allow Statement equipment to work well but seems to work great with the Reference range (552/500) and equipment lower in the hierarchy. Since you have 500DR I'd say you are not hearing what that amp can really do right now.

Try it and decide.

DB.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Just about the same as from swapping to SL DIN-DIN and SL speaker cables

Also - once 'completed' the SL full loom somehow sounds more than a sum of its parts.

 

My experience is the same as Adam's.

I also seem to have been more fortunate than Darke Bear in the sense that the running-in period with my XLR was quite short. And I experienced the run-in period twice as I had an SL XLR when I had a 250 and then had to replace it with the twin XLRs when I upgraded the 250 to a 300DR. Mind you, DB's active top-end system must be extremely revealing.  

I'm now running in twin DIN-XLR as well as  a brand new NAP 300DR. A bit of a painful experience, but it already aounds good...

I took the plunge knowing how well the system sounded when I added an SL DIN-XLR to my NAP 250DR. 

I started with Witch Hat DIN to XLR in February, followed by SL DIN to DIN from the nDAC to the 282 soon after and 4 weeks ago SL speaker cable. I have been using SL RCA to DIN for a week. It brings out much more emotion from my vinyl music.

I've demoed all these for a goodly period before buying. The Witch Hat can be returned within a month if not happy.

Each has always added to the system performance although at the beginning I was also trying out power cords. My nDAC XPS DR and Rega Aria benefited most from Isotek Optimum. Both became quiet between the notes, most noticeably the Aria. When I added PL Lites to the 282's SuperCap DR and more so the NAPSC the soundstage noticeably improved (I tried PLs everywhere from February to April but the sound was hard and got harder as more PLs were added).

So when I added SL speaker cable it matched the sound of well run-in Chord Odessey 2 and just got better. Replacing the Rega Couple 2 from the Aria the music has just got better and better even though it was good before, and I'm now upto 20 LPs (I tried £800 cables which weren't as good as the Couple 2, and it's taken a while to get the loan of the SL RCA to DIN (thank you Naim) but why do the Phono plugs add £211).

I'd be interested in knowing whether anyone has completed their SL loom replacing the very good Witch Hat DIN to XLR. As I need two it's very costly compared to the Witch Hat. I assume the 252 and 552 use two as well.

Phil

Adam Zielinski posted:

I'm now running in twin DIN-XLR as well as  a brand new NAP 300DR. A bit of a painful experience, but it already aounds good...

I took the plunge knowing how well the system sounded when I added an SL DIN-XLR to my NAP 250DR. 

Adam, it a shame that the single one with right and left channels is not compatible with the one channel version. Phil

Not really Phil - I use my 250 with a SuperNait 2 running as a pre so the cable is used. 

Adam Zielinski posted:

Not really Phil - I use my 250 with a SuperNait 2 running as a pre so the cable is used. 

Forgot you had three systems! Shame for others if they move up from 250DR or similarly configured systems.

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions.

I will speak to my local dealer about loaning a demo pair of Din-Xlr for the 500dr. He mentioned previously that he has a new pair  that is not run in. Perhaps I will request that I do the demo after it's been run in to avoid any false conclusions due to run in issues.

I've also toyed with the suggestion of getting the witchhat cable but there doesn't seem to be anybody using them in a reference naim system in conjunction with SL leads. I could get a home trial though but it's a little troublesome in where I live in Singapore.

Has anyone noticed that SL source interconnects + speaker cables + stock black din-xlr has a certain forward and bright sound, and will the SL din-xlr help mitigate this?

LY

The SL speaker cables are the opposite of forward and bright - I found them very open and spacious if I had to describe them, perhaps even verging on dull at first when not run-in.

The SL source IC cables can sound a bit thin and overly bright at first until they run-in. The DIN-XLR leads are also very bright at first too until run-in.

I never much really believed in run-in of cables until I encountered the SL cables and compared the new to the demo set and the difference was so much you would think they were different cables or something was wrong with one set.

As a personal choice I prefer things, if they go wrong, to go dull rather than bright, so I'm happier with running-in things that start a bit dull then sharpen-up - and that is what I found the speaker cables did. I had a harder time with the IC cables run-in, both source and DIN-XLR, for the reason that they begin bright then lose that glare-edge with run-in and also open-out lower down and sound far freer later on. Pairing the speaker cables and the source IC leads kind of countered each other somewhat as they ran-in.

I also found - in my system - that the NAC A5 cable I had been using, before upgrading to SL cables, did not like inter-working with the SL DIN-XLR cable, as the latter imparts a lot more low-frequency energy and seemed to reveal a shortcoming in NAC A5 that sounded like an unevenness or 'bump' in the bass that was unpleasant in my system - but that will be system-dependent and I use speakers that have very low bass capability, so it may be more my system there.

So I'd recommend as SL upgrade sequence: Source IC - Speaker Cables then DIN-XLR in that order.

DB.

Laxton Yeo posted:

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions.

I will speak to my local dealer about loaning a demo pair of Din-Xlr for the 500dr. He mentioned previously that he has a new pair  that is not run in. Perhaps I will request that I do the demo after it's been run in to avoid any false conclusions due to run in issues.

I've also toyed with the suggestion of getting the witchhat cable but there doesn't seem to be anybody using them in a reference naim system in conjunction with SL leads. I could get a home trial though but it's a little troublesome in where I live in Singapore.

Has anyone noticed that SL source interconnects + speaker cables + stock black din-xlr has a certain forward and bright sound, and will the SL din-xlr help mitigate this?

LY

I use the Witch Hat DIN/XLR together with SL interconnect and SL speaker cables in my system and very good the Witch Hat is too - appreciably better than the stock DIN/XLR. Mine is not a reference system (NDS/252/SuperCapDR/250DR) so the Witch Hat DIN/XLR makes some sense until I decide to go for the SL version of this cable.

However, in the context of a 500 series system, the Witch Hat would be a significant compromise compared to a full SL loom IMO. The Witch Hat DIN/XLR might tame the brightness of the stock cable (in combination with SL IC/SL speaker cables) you refer to but there is no guarantee. IIRC, Witch Hat offer a money back guarantee so you might be able to check this out with no risk, but if funds are available I would go straight to the SL DIN/XLR if I had a 500 series system.

The Witch Hat is better than the standard wire, but the SL is much, much better again. I have a full SL loom (though it only needs three wires) and together with the DR power supplies it's delightful. The music is so natural and engaging and it's like the speakers aren't there at all. In the context of the OP's system I'd say it's a no-brainer. 

the SL cables are not bright.

The DIN/XLR is a superb cable and sound great to me out of the box. 

The gains are easily heard, better bass, lower bass, more resolution, more rhythmic, more engaging, the standard DIN-XLR is relatively lifeless and dull sounding, one can hear that it gets in the way of the music by comparison.

Oh and the soundstage is bigger too with the SL XLR cables.

I would not hesitate one second to buy the SL full loom

The only real issue is whether your credit card can take the pain 

You truly have not heard what your Naim amp is capable of unless you hear it with SL DIN/XLR.

Analog,I thought the general consensus on the forum was to get the SL speaker cables before the Din to XLR...I noticed you still use Naca5,have you tried the SL speaker cables?I may go down the SL road next,and probably will do it in steps as funds allow it.I still use the stock Din to XLR,with Naca5.

yes I have tried the SL speaker cables, and they do give more 3-d sound, tighter bass and more clarity. It is on my wish list.

I do have vertere DIN/XLR, and this is a day and night difference compared to the old standard Naim XLR cable.

I don't know what you should do first, as I have not tried them together to see which gave the bigger gains.

But....  I could live without SL speaker cables if money were really very very tight and I had no food to eat (but I would work 2 jobs to buy them and I don't plan to live without them), but to my ears, there is no going back to the old DIN/XLR after hearing the Vertere. The same applies to the SL DIN/XLR cable, it is extremely good.

Music just comes to life in a way, that eludes the old XLR cable. 

According to Vertere, one should fix the weakest link first.

The question is, which is the weaker link, the NACA5 or the standard DIN/XLR?

Both are to my ears, so in the end you will have to buy both cables  and well, yes SL speaker cable first, I think....?

My confusion is that NACA 5 has no PRAT issues (but has resolution refinement issues, sounds thick and little congested, and has lumpy bass compared to SL) , but the old XLR cable, well is just dull and slow compared to SL XLR one, has bandwidth (bass, speed of bass, high frequency resolution- lack of PRAT) issues, and has a smaller soundstage.... 

I think it would be advisable to offer opinions on products tried, tested and preferably one owns (especially in the context of the OP's rather specific question).

but his question was "Should I go for the full loom? What are the improvements to expect with the SL din-xlr over the standard interconnects?"

I cannot comment on Chord DIN/XLR, but certainly I have heard the SL ones.

and my mind there is no doubt the SL DIN/XLR is superb. I think you agree Adam, since you have bought them twice  for the 250 DR and 300 DR

Always surprised about the "SL DIN-XLR" discussion. Chord Sarum DIN-XLR was way ahead of standard cable. Vertere dident impress at all (same construction more or less as SL).  

Chord Music beats Sarum hands down. 

Where there where some serious competition between IC & Speaker cable manufacturers, power cords and XLR-DIN was always a simple win for Chords alternatives. 

Just my experience. 

//Jonas

I think Vertere would say that they do not make cables to impress anyone, they want their cables to have no sound of their own.

The best cable is "no cable", and certainly knowing how Naim think, they also do not wish their cables to have any sound of their own (Super Lumina)

Vertere also says, there is nothing there after the source that can actually improve the signal, every component is doing harm to the signal, and cables do it the most.

When I compared the Vertere and Superlumina XLR cables to the standard Naim one, it just became apparent that the standard one doesn't let the music through in the same way as the Vertere and SL cables.

And the Vertere cables are not the same as SL, different connectors are used, and maybe same idea, but Naim's cable are very much their own, as they sound different to me, if one can afford SuperLumina, one should buy.

I also had the good luck to compare RCA to DIN vertere entry level DFI cable to Chord Sarum RCA to RCA on Chord Dave, and also Linn KDS/1, and I don't understand these day and night differences that forum members talk about.

The Vertere interconnect does sound different and I do like it very much, but certainly nothing to say one cable sounds broken next to the other one or day and night, or one cable didn't impress or ......  

On Chord Dave, we detected small differences, but the Dave still sounded like Dave, on both cables, whereas the KDS/1 actually sounded marginally, more musical with the Vertere cable. But hardly worth getting excited about.

This was with 202/200/NACA5 and also entry level Dynaudio X16 bookshelf, so maybe this entry level amplifier/speakers cannot justify such differences, and really these hi-end Sarum/Music cables belong on 500 series?

So there. My 2 cents.

Thanks for your inputs.

Based on the comments on Vertere and Chord cables, I wished it were possible to have a home trial for them but it isn't really possible from where I am.

I am able to loan the SL and judging from comments, I should do so to maximize the system. 

Laxton Yeo posted:

Thanks for your inputs.

Based on the comments on Vertere and Chord cables, I wished it were possible to have a home trial for them but it isn't really possible from where I am.

 

I am able to loan the SL and judging from comments, I should do so to maximize the system. 

Good call.

Please note that in the opinion of some fellow Forum members the proverbial grass is always greener on the other side. And that's perfectly OK for some.

However, I decided to make my life a little bit simpler. I assumed that Naim generally know what they're doing so Naim equipment and Naim cables do match each other fairly well.

Cheers,
Adam

Hi Adam,

Yup I think I'm just delaying the inevitable.

Just for fun of it, I've actually tried to swap back to the stock lavender interconnects and naca5 in place of the SL. In both cases (the tests were done independently), there was a very "old" naim sound with the lavender and naca5 where there was a mid bass hump and lower frequencies sound bloated. Putting back the SL opened the sound up immediately and instruments just took on a very realistic and natural timbre. It's a huge jump that I wouldn't have noticed without reverting to the old cables. It's one of those upgrades where you cannot live without once it's in your system.

Laxton Yeo posted:

Just for fun of it, I've actually tried to swap back to the stock lavender interconnects and naca5 in place of the SL. In both cases (the tests were done independently), there was a very "old" naim sound with the lavender and naca5 where there was a mid bass hump and lower frequencies sound bloated. Putting back the SL opened the sound up immediately and instruments just took on a very realistic and natural timbre. It's a huge jump that I wouldn't have noticed without reverting to the old cables. It's one of those upgrades where you cannot live without once it's in your system.

That is exactly what I noticed when I swapped-back to NACA5 after I returned the demo SL cables prior to my own ones arriving, but it is interesting to hear it from someone else too.
NACA5 is very good for the price, but it is nowhere near the capability of the SL cable.

As has been said, there are always comments that other cables are even better - which may be true, or not, but they are more expensive and should be. But my home trial of the Chord TA interconnect which everyone at the time was raving over was incredibly disappointing - it ruined the performance of my system dynamically, actually reducing dynamics and bloating the bass; I tried it in two other Naim systems and the owners gave the same comments in rejecting this supposed 'better' cable.

Always home-demo to be sure what others say is true for you. I've heard some people prefer cables and equipment that I could not live with but for them is better - we are all different.

DB.