If the 552 DR is so good, why desire the Statement?

IB, unfortunately the published 'specifications' for line and preamp outputs output are usually confined to:
Output Voltage (usually unspecified as to whether this is maximum RMS or some other reference voltage, and with unspecified headroom)
Output Impedance (usually at an unspecified frequency, often 1kHz, with no indication of how this varies with frequency)
and just sometimes, Bandwidth (sometimes even without specifying the attenuation at the specified frequency limits, but even then usually without information of the attenuation slopes of the filters, or of any phase changes present in in-band or out-of-band signals)

This type of published 'specification' aren't sufficient to ensure matching to any specific power amp (usually with input specifications that are equally inadequate for deriving a complete matching profile).

james n posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

 

There was a thread early this year when someone directly compared Dave into a 300 or 500 (I can't remember for certain which), against through a 552 (IIRC), and in their case preferred the sound through the 552.

This is something that has always intrigued me really about audio from an engineers perspective. The simplest signal path should be the best (let's assume impedance matching etc is taken care of) and from a signal integrity perspective this should result in the cleanest, most transparent playback - end of story.

From a musical enjoyment perspective, this is not usually the case and we tend to like more character in the playback and why some like vinyl, valve amps and characterful speakers. Whilst i don't tend to like excessively coloured systems, i don't enjoy the sterile character of a monitoring system either so i'm in the camp of musical enjoyment over absolute 'accuracy'. 

James, I recall HH running a thread last week, Musicians in the Living Room, I think!

Nice thread, my take on that thread, that the ultimate goal was to duplicate the live experience.

If one aspires to duplicate the Live Experience, would that fall under the category of Transparency, or Character?

Allante93!

@ Innocent & Hugh:

Now Gentleman, if we eliminated the Pre Amp, how would one switch between their LP 12, CD 555, and NDS!

But if we by-pass the Pre-Amp, how would that impact SQ?

Townsend Allegri is the real answer

I haven't heard it - but how does the Allegri preserve the star earthing or ground principles of Naim

In particular the routing of the signal earth and power earth reference which is done through the Naim PSU?

As I can see, the Allegri has no DIN connectors, and therefore uses RCA connectors which splits the signal earth in two.

Of course I would rather pay for an Allegri if it can sound as good as a 552 - but over the years I've learnt more clarity doesn't equal more musicality - been burnt a few times by some companies that claim to better Naim - but they don't in the musical values that are important to me and that Naim provide.

Allante93 posted:

@ Innocent & Hugh:

Now Gentleman, if we eliminated the Pre Amp, how would one switch between their LP 12, CD 555, and NDS!

But if we by-pass the Pre-Amp, how would that impact SQ?

Posted by HM:

8/27/16 3:37 PM 

"yes, the hugo has its own internal preamp\volume\voltage control. it cannot be bypassed. connecting it to a second preamp will degrade transparancy, even if it was the best preamp ever made."

Allante93!

 

Allante  - if you spend some time reading the review of the NAC 552 on stereophile by Mike Fremer- you will find a different point of view.

With all respect to the designer of Hugo - Naim have designed the preamp and power amp as one unit. Even Changing the cables that connect both with Non Naim cables changes the timing and musicality, all then bets are off.

Naim do know what they are doing - there is to my ears such a thing as a Naim sound, and if you like that sound, there is not much to be gained by removing a Naim preamp from a Naim power amp and replacing that with something else. Some people claim to have done this (I think one forum member tried and is happy with his EAR valve preamp), but personally I'm very, very, extremely particular to preserve the musicality of a full Naim amp and also using original Naim cables.

Allante93 posted:

@ Innocent & Hugh:

Now Gentleman, if we eliminated the Pre Amp, how would one switch between their LP 12, CD 555, and NDS!

 

Easy, only have one source! That's what I do. 

However that relates to hifi source, and I do sometimes put other things through the system (e.g. keyboard or guitar),  and to do that I disconnect Dave and connect a preamp - or with my Bryston amp, which has dual inputs, one balanced, I connect one to Dave and the other to a preamp, and switch between them on the amp.

Just tried a super lumina interconnect between nds and 552 holy crap it's brill!!!! That statement preamp must sound stunning......

Consciousmess posted:

I need to challenge people here as if one looks through older posts, the 52 was once the bees knees.  Of course its updated model is better, but then the praise and words said for the 552 make one think THAT was the pinnacle.

No post says the 552 is lacking. None. So why desire the Statement?

(And how is the 52 now viewed?!)

Human fickleness is perplexing. Maybe that's the wrong word, but when the 'Statement 2' comes out, how will the Statement be commented on... e.g. "I was listening to superb hifi but now the band is properly in the room".

Curious, don't you think?

It`s all relative

Consciousmess posted:

I need to challenge people here as if one looks through older posts, the 52 was once the bees knees.  Of course its updated model is better, but then the praise and words said for the 552 make one think THAT was the pinnacle.

No post says the 552 is lacking. None. So why desire the Statement?

(And how is the 52 now viewed?!)

Human fickleness is perplexing. Maybe that's the wrong word, but when the 'Statement 2' comes out, how will the Statement be commented on... e.g. "I was listening to superb hifi but now the band is properly in the room".

Curious, don't you think?

Bugger me if the pinacle doesn't keep moving !    ...and isn't it said that if you're not moving forward, you're moving backward (there's no such thing as 'standing still').   This is what makes life for us human beings bearable isn't it?

In fact, tbh I'm dreading the day that I can no longer look forward to getting even more enjoyment out of my audio setup... that will be the day my spirit has died and with it, probably, my will to carry on.

Still, looking on the bright side, at least I am comforted knowing the meaning of life... 42  (or is it JC?)

I believe 42 was the answer provided by the Supercomputer to 'life, the universe and everything'. The answer wasn't understood (by Ford Prefect wasn't it?) because the question was also incomprehensible.

Sorry to be so pedantic and sorry for the diversion. I admit to being bored.

a stupid question about statement...

can you you use the Pre statement with 300dr or 500dr?  will it be an odd combo?  

Emre posted:

a stupid question about statement...

can you you use the Pre statement with 300dr or 500dr?  will it be an odd combo?  

I seam to recall someone on the forum does use a S1 pre-amp with an (albeit active) NAP500 setup.

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...21#51267011377063021

Emre posted:

a stupid question about statement...

can you you use the Pre statement with 300dr or 500dr?  will it be an odd combo?  

I've heard the S1 with a 500DR 

Emre posted:

a stupid question about statement...

can you you use the Pre statement with 300dr or 500dr?  will it be an odd combo?  

I seem to remember a thread posted by a Naim dealer a few years ago on this very subject. He  connected the S1 preamp to the pre DR amplifiers from 200 through to 500 with excellent results. The thread revealed how excellent even the less expensive amplifiers in the Naim classic series are, something most of us will never hear as we will never own an S1!

I used S1 with 6x135...

S1 works very nicely with 500DR.
I'd say the DR 'sound' upgrade fits very well with the qualities the S1 brings to the system, especially the extreme LF delivery quality in terms of purity, power and perceived phase - there is a 'start-stop' on deep notes plucked or percussive hits that is special. Although the overall thing I like is the 'at ease' un-forced clarity and insight into the musical fabric that is there.

DB.

Darke Bear posted:

S1 works very nicely with 500DR.
I'd say the DR 'sound' upgrade fits very well with the qualities the S1 brings to the system, especially the extreme LF delivery quality in terms of purity, power and perceived phase - there is a 'start-stop' on deep notes plucked or percussive hits that is special. Although the overall thing I like is the 'at ease' un-forced clarity and insight into the musical fabric that is there.

DB.

DB.

I see why Bears hibernate, the Forum can get crazy, but for the most, a fine bunch!

When I joined the Forum,  you offered me a warm welcome, and shared pictures of your Active BRIKS.

At that time, the SL technologies had not been released.

At that time you were sporting, non- DR Black Boxes with BMR Active Ovators!

I think.

Flat Earth---------------0----------------Round Earth

Would you say that the introduction to the Dred Blacked boxes, combined with the Loom, has moved the needle to the right?

And Lastly, but not least, has the S1 moved the needle?

Allante93!

The options of so-called 'flat earth' and 'Round Earth' are not bipolar options when you have the S1.

People hear and appreciate different things got right in music replay systems. Naim, for me, tend to always retain what I describe as high 'linearity' in the sound at expense of other aspects of HiFi performance. What I mean be linearity is that the louder musical strands do no obliterate the quieter strands. Some manufacturers equipment optimise high-level quality at expense of the quieter strands of music - some to my ears in a shocking way given the praise they seem to get. With Naim kit I hear the quiet with the loud portrayed very well. The 'start-stop' quality or good transient handling and low overhang also give the 'darkness' to the sound I like as well as the good tunefulness.

As the Naim hierarchy is ascended you get more of this ability, together with more of the 'HiFi' so-called round earth aspects, but never sacrificing the inherent linearity to attain the latter. Some levels of the hierarchy attain the system end result differently, but you could hear what Naim were aiming for with the old Reference kit. The Statement components just takes it far further, but at a considerable financial outlay. 

That is how I hear it.

DB.

Allante93 posted:

Darke Bear posted:

S1 works very nicely with 500DR.
I'd say the DR 'sound' upgrade fits very well with the qualities the S1 brings to the system, especially the extreme LF delivery quality in terms of purity, power and perceived phase - there is a 'start-stop' on deep notes plucked or percussive hits that is special. Although the overall thing I like is the 'at ease' un-forced clarity and insight into the musical fabric that is there.

DB.

DB.

I see why Bears hibernate, the Forum can get crazy, but for the most, a fine bunch!

When I joined the Forum,  you offered me a warm welcome, and shared pictures of your Active BRIKS.

At that time, the SL technologies had not been released.

At that time you were sporting, non- DR Black Boxes with BMR Active Ovators!

I think.

Flat Earth---------------0----------------Round Earth

Would you say that the introduction to the Dred Blacked boxes, combined with the Loom, has moved the needle to the right?

And Lastly, but not least, has the S1 moved the needle?

Allante93!

ALLANTE !

For me personally curiosity is good, but for me (again) clearly not with stuff that is financially out of reach.

Sorry but that's the way I see it. I am happy at 282 level, not at all motivated to even listen to S1.

Particularly when stuff that is within reach take performance to levels that "I don't care about the next level" (Vertere cables, Chord Mojo/Hugo)

I have NO doubts that S1 is much better than 552, but let's not act like small children it is a matter of cold hard CASH.

If you got it, you don't need to ask "why desire the statement", if you don't then try to be happy with what you got, after plenty of people were/are happy with the old 52, let alone 552.

Likewise there is NO need to ask whether a Bentley is one of the best cars on the planet, if funds are not available. 

analogmusic posted:

Allante93 posted:

Darke Bear posted:

Flat Earth>Round E.

Would you say that the introduction to the Dred Blacked boxes, combined with the Loom, has movjed the needle to the right?

And Lastly, but not least, has the S1 moved the needle?

Allante93!

ALLANTE !

For me personally curiosity is good, but for me (again) clearly not with stuff that is financially out of reach.

Sorry but that's the way I see it. I am happy at 282 level, not at all motivated to even listen to S1.

Particularly when stuff that is within reach take performance to levels that "I don't care about the next level" (Vertere cables, Chord Mojo/Hugo)

 

I have NO doubts that S1 is much better than 552, but let's not act like small children it is a matter of cold hard CASH.

If you got it, you don't need to ask "why desire the statement", if you don't then try to be happy with what you got, after plenty of people were/are happy with the old 52, let alone 552.

Likewise there is NO need to ask whether a Bentley is one of the best cars on the planet, if funds are not available. 

Right you are again, Analog!

I don't have the Hard Cold Cash for Chords Dave, less known a Statement!

I merely was asking DB has the needle moved towards the round earth end of the spectrum.

As usual, DB answer the question in a most appropriate fashion :

Posted by DB.

"As the Naim hierarchy is ascended you get more of this ability,

{together with more of the 'HiFi' so-called round earth aspects}

, but never sacrificing the inherent linearity to attain the latter.

Some levels of the hierarchy attain the system end result differently, but you could hear what Naim were aiming for with the old Reference kit.

The Statement components just takes it far further, but at a considerable financial outlay. 

That is how I hear it.

DB.""

And that my Friend, is how DB, views the Evolving Sound Of Naim!

Allante93!

PS. I'm with you Analog-Music!

""For me personally curiosity is good, but for me (again) clearly not with stuff that is financially out of reach.

Sorry but that's the way I see it. I am happy at 282 level, not at all motivated to even listen to S1.""

But if I had the Hard Cold Cash, Dave!!!!!

LOL......

No, Dave is not at all required to enjoy music.... I got the Chord Mojo, and due to portability I use that a lot more than Dave. And it is very enjoyable.

All I'm saying is over the years I learnt small investments in cables from Chord cables and Vertere and affordable DAC like Mojo can give much more satisfaction than the upgrade boxes some of which are out of reach for me.

Do look into these, for example  the entry level Chord interconnect - clearway has some of the hi-end Tuned Aray technology from Sarum and sounds superb to me.

Same with DFI range from Vertere, real game changing sound.

I also managed to buy an old Chord Chrysalis - from eBay - and now I understand why Richard Dane likes it so much.

So I've learnt to try to get the very best out of what I got.

Powerline Lite is quite reasonably priced and makes a difference.

Anyway now that Uniti star and Nova are out - all bets are off. Who knows, that could be all the Naim one ever needs.

I'm disappointed that there is no upgrade path for the statement. In the usual Naim style it could have had lots of supporting black boxes with upgrade options. Otherwise what does a statement owner do with their time when there are no tweaks to explore? 

Probably working to pay for it?

They could try ruining it by adding non Naim peripherals.