Classical Music - Definitive Editions?

Why not get your six year old started with piano lessons. Lessons will soon introduce classical music into the repertoire. My two grandsons (6 and 8) took to it. At this age they learn quickly. Just playing classical music calms them down and helps them concentrate. 

perizoqui posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

That is rather disingenuous! I listen to classical about 50% of the time (and mostly complete works not exerpts)...

Apologies, didn't mean to offend! Perhaps we just have different taste. My sense is that 6 year olds, like those of any age, are best introduced to classical music with the good stuff.

No offence taken! In some ways I agree, but I was more thinking dabble around to find what captivates him most and build from there. A full length symphony, however good, might not do so well if it is the initial introduction.

I like Villa Lobos - Bachianas Brasileiras

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Mango, I've gone the "score" route with our 5 year old (but we do play other classical music).  This gives him context to the film and he knows which music goes with the different scenes, current favs are :

Bruno Coulais + Kila - The Secret of Kells

Bruno Coulais + Kila - Song of the Sea

Henry Jackman - Big Hero 6

John Powell - How to Train your Dragon

Hans Zimmer - Kung Fu Panda 3 

Recently the Calgary Philharmonic performed the 'Dreamworks Concert' where they had clips of the films, played live with the full orchestra, I certainly recommend that experience.

Filipe posted:

Why not get your six year old started with piano lessons. Lessons will soon introduce classical music into the repertoire. My two grandsons (6 and 8) took to it. At this age they learn quickly. Just playing classical music calms them down and helps them concentrate. 

I'm not convinced piano,lessons will engender a love of classical music, though it could develop a love of playing music.

the biggest challenge with piano (or any other instrument) lessons is finding a good tutor - which means one that can build a good rapport with the student. My oldest son had piano lessons from about the age of About 5 or 6 and stagnated by the time he was 8 or 9. A change of tutor and he really took to it. And my other son learning cello enjoyed it and did well, then an enforced change of teacher and within a couple of years he stopped progressing and stopped lessons - but he enjoyed playing on his own and joined the youth orchestra, effectively teachingbhimself, and now several years later, an 'old boy' in the youth orchestra, he is seeking a tutor.

perizoqui posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

That is rather disingenuous! I listen to classical about 50% of the time (and mostly complete works not exerpts)...

Apologies, didn't mean to offend! Perhaps we just have different taste. My sense is that 6 year olds, like those of any age, are best introduced to classical music with the good stuff.

What is the good stuff in your opinion?

I think any exposure to classical music early on is a good thing. Altho when I was 6, the music class consisted of just listening to a score with our eyes closed. Teacher would start with what a music is about at the beginning but then after that we all listened and try to immerse in the music. A lot of *vivid* tone poems or ballet music were used for this exercise. It isn't too hard to hear the sound of wave out of La Mer for instance. Or William Tell Overture invoking the image of galloping horse back riding through the forest. Prokofiev, Debussy, Tchaikovsky, Rossini etc.. But it was great way to learn how to listen to a long tune ( not just 3 min. of popular songs ) but to stimulate child's imagination without visual stimuli.

It took me a quite a while for me to appreciate Mozart and Baroque music, or even Bach which often used for my piano lesson and I absolutely hated them as I thought they were all finger exercise nonsense.

It only took me 40+ years I was wrong.

My youngest wanted piano lessons and really enjoyed them. He gave up after grade 5 but still enjoys playing our piano. He took up guitar when he was about 13 and the piano gave him a good grounding - being able to read music was really helpful. The key thing is that they have got to want to learn it, rather than it being something forced on them by their parents.

We just play what we want and never played anything specifically for the children when they were small. They will decide for themselves what they like. The more you try to get them to like something the more they are likely to dislike it. Our eldest, who is 22 now and more likely to listen to EDM than anything else surprised me the other day by saying how much he enjoys hearing chamber music coming up from downstairs when I listen to it while having breakfast and doing the chores. Never did I encourage him to like it, and clearly he has made his own choice.

notnaim man posted:

Surely all music is "good stuff", which is good for any individual depends on their taste.

 

Nonsense. That's like saying all books are good, all movies entertaining, and all architecture beautiful. Not only is all music not "good," the vast majority of it is garbage. That, among other reasons, is why almost all of it is forgotten with time. Taylor Swift isn't good stuff, nor were the Bee Gees, or the vast majority of what folks play at audio shows for that matter. We can disagreee on what the good stuff is, but you can't tell me it's all good! Moral and aesthetic relativism make me twitchy ��

Filipe posted:

Why not get your six year old started with piano lessons. 

That's a fantastic suggestion! I was forced to play the violin for seven years from age 6. Hated it with a passion, but loved the music I heard others play and gained a deep appreciation for how music is composed and how it ought to sound when played by folks more talented than I.

kuma posted:

What is the good stuff in your opinion?

 

Everything EOINK suggested, plus those things that I added to his suggestions are good and accessible. There's lots more, and even more that's less accessible. But those suggestions are a great start. I remember watching Amadeus with my father at the movie theater when I was nine and that had a profound influence as well.

Why of course but why those are good and other suggested are less good?

P.S. All the performance in Amadeus are good but  Marriner's Requiem remains as one of my favourite reading.

Ah, answering which work is good is easier than answering why.

p.s. If you like the Requiem, Marriner is very nice, there's also a new recording out on Linn records from the Dunedin Consort with John Butt directing. Very good, highly recommended.

I took the original question to be MM asking for music to introduce him to classical music, while being able to keep the attention of a 6 year old, and answered that way. I chose pieces of music which I thought showed the greatness of certain forms, periods and composers, while having great choons (as I believe young people say) and don't need knowledge of the style to allow enjoyment, because of the musical beauty I think they'd be enjoyable for a kid as well. Some of the other answers were great answers to the other reading which would be how do you introduce a 6 year old. MM asked about performances, a purely personal list follows of performances I love of the ones I recommended. I've copied my previous text and added a recommendation in each paragraph.

Hope this is of help.

Perfect! That's e exactly what I needed.

in the meantime, I also have a couple of sampler  CDs by Helene Grimaud on order.. 

(Perspectives by Helene...)

MangoMonkey posted:

Perfect! That's e exactly what I needed.

in the meantime, I also have a couple of sampler  CDs by Helene Grimaud on order.. 

(Perspectives by Helene...)

That will suffer a bit from the thing that Periquozi flagged, that it's got movements from multiple pieces rather than the whole pieces. Having said that, there are some wonderful bits of music there, and I think you'll really enjoy it, it looks a nice intro to classical piano music, although I would suggest then moving on to the whole pieces.

The two Bach Prelude and Fugues (labelled as BWV 847 and BWV 875) are from his masterful Well Tempered Clavier, and will stand up well on their own without the other 44 movements. It then has the whole of Bartok's Romanian Folk Dances, 6 short movements, which is a lovely setting of 6 traditional folk dances, it runs to about 5-10 minutes from memory. That's followed by the first  movement from one of the late great Beethoven Piano Sonatas (Op. 101), I think it's quite reasonable to believe (and I do) that in his late piano sonatas and string quartets that Beethoven took music to a level of sophistication and self-revelation that has never been surpassed. But it isn't as pompous or pretentious as I make it sound, this is a lovely warm piece of music. I can also spot a Debussy piece and a Liszt piece, each a movement from a collection of preludes. Again lovely  music. The other pieces I'm not helped to identify by Amazon's track listing, they've just taken the movement name, Allegro doesn't really narrow it down.

Grimaud is a pianist who divides opinion, she's very expressive, critics say that she puts her interpretation above the notes the composer write, fans say that she gives great interpretations. I've seen her live a few times and she is a great musical communicator, I wouldn't worry about the purist position, just enjoy the music.

Streaming WAV

(1993)

His second solo studio album and like the first beautifully recorded with lovely SQ. Taken from the original Reprise label CD, this was produced by Walter Becker.

Eoink posted:

I took the original question to be MM asking for music to introduce him to classical music, while being able to keep the attention of a 6 year old, and answered that way.

 

I took it the same way. To your suggestions:

perizoqui posted:

Ah, answering which work is good is easier than answering why.

p.s. If you like the Requiem, Marriner is very nice, there's also a new recording out on Linn records from the Dunedin Consort with John Butt directing. Very good, highly recommended.

So you did not answer my question.

Butt/Dunedin's Requiem isn't new. It's been out for a couple of years albeit newer than the Marriner recording.

Whilst it will not be mistaken for an analogue recording, It sounds terrific ( i have it in vinyl )  It's done in HIP style, so It does not have the usual gravitas but what ends up is a tremendous intensity created by human voice. Vocals and the orchestra are working extremely close together keeping a fast timing, right up there with Gardiner set which is another fave of mine. The problem is for me tho, that  the Lacrimosa does not have much of lucidity nor feeling of sorrow.  It is handled rather straight. guess that's part of HIP thing with less romanticism. It usually provides a contrast to the heavy bits.  Soprano (  Joanne Lunn ) is quite lovely, hovering like an angel with bell like tones with no sign of strain.

If I have to pick between Marriner and Butt, I think I'll  pick the former. They are both good but Marriner set has the most haunting but majestic reading and the timing seems just right for me. 

You might prefer the other way around or some other readings all together.

The OP requested *definitive* classical. Mozart's Requiem should be one of the definitive for the genre.

Save

Rachmaninov's Piano Concertos No. 2 & 3.

Been tackled by lots of people but Ashkenasy is a good place to start.

Some possible intros for MM (which won't irritate his 6yo)

Arvo Part - Spiegel Im Spiegel

Allegri's Miserere (Latin version preferable - look for The Tallis Scholars version)

Anything by Philip Glass (try Complete String Quartets by The Smith Quartet)

Rachmaninov's Piano Concertos 1-4 (especially no 2) - so many versions it's hard, but I have the LSO/Ashkenazy on Decca

Also MM I really enjoyed a book called "The Rest Is Noise" by Alex Ross - it's about modern classical composers and is, in my view, exceptional. It has great recommended listening lists and a there's a good website. Got me into loads of stuff which I couldn't now live without.

Picking up on EOINK's very helpful advice I think the way into classical music is through the "choon". That's the easiest way in my view. Which brings in composers like Tchaikovsky, Puccini, Rachmaninov and many more. Try to meet them half way and because its "Chamber Music" don't be put off by that title. Schubert wrote some of his best works in this medium, including a vast number of songs. There is also the elitist view held by a lot of people, that its not for people like us!

I am currently playing an LP of "South Pacific", Te Kanawa/Carreras, on a heavily modified LP12 with a Stiletto plinth, brilliant. Those guys, Rogers and Hammerstein just knew how to write a tune. Mind you, some of the best bits are the silences between the notes. Think of Gustav Mahler symphonies.

Douglas.

kuma posted:

So you did not answer my question.

 

Save

No. I can't answer it! Spent the whole day yesterday thinking about it. I could say that good music rewards repeated listening with greater enjoyment, but that's unsatisfactory. It's true that after a few listens modern music gets old, whereas the more I listen to Beethoven's string quartets the more I enjoy them. But that's not the answer, or at least not the whole answer. It's an emotional pull, but more than that. I read a study somewhere claiming people think better with classical music than with no music, and worst of all with modern music. But that still feels incomplete. Some philosopher somewhere must have tackled why Beethoven is better than Tchaikovsky, and both are leagues better than Eminem.

Why is my Naim 300 better than an NAD C275 power amp? It's not THD, or any other spec. NAD has twice the power... But my Naim is better, much. 

We talk a lot about musicality here. Beginning and end of notes. Taken literally there's a lot of BS in that, but it isn't BS because it's just a clumsy attempt to put in words what we feel when we listen.

Answering what makes a work good or bad is even harder.

But Beethoven's quartets are better than anything written in the last 100 years 

perizoqui posted:

 But that still feels incomplete. Some philosopher somewhere must have tackled why Beethoven is better than Tchaikovsky, and both are leagues better than Eminem.

But Beethoven's quartets are better than anything written in the last 100 years 

I am not a fan of a top 40 nor Eminen, but Music is art.

Artists' objective is to communicate with human souls. If someone is moved by the music of Eminen then, that's good music for them. And if Beethoven's music does not penetrate a soul, then that's not good music for them.

I am not completely convinced you can put a hierarchy in music. We have a tendency to put classical music at the top of the food chain. I think Bach and Beethoven is no better than the Beatles or Dylan.

In my household Handel sits comfortably right next to Hancock and Sir Roland Hanna  on my record shelf.

In case no one has mentioned it, Benjamin Britton's 'Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra' is the way to give anyone an introduction to instruments and music. 

We had a piano and so it was natural that both our children would experiment with musical instruments. My daughter by the age of 4 was playing tunes by ear thanks to the help my wife gave her. I would warn against leaving the piano keyboard open as they both enjoyed bashing the veneered keys with their bricks! At 18 months my son's eldest could do a respectable turn on his drum kit (3 drums and cymbals). He also has an electronic keyboard and is showing interest in playing tunes. We also have a grownup keyboard and they make a bee line for it when they visit. A nursery that includes music is a good thing.

I think I mentioned some days ago at the beginning that playing classical music in the background calms children and aids their concentration. Others have made similar observations. I would never force them to just listen unless they wanted to. They will take it in just as my 2 year old grandson is taking in Spanish and English and is now able to have a simple conversation in both languages. He understood the languages some while ago. His mother speaks to him in Spanish and my son in English (although he is fluent in both plus reading and writing). 

Phil 

kuma posted:

perizoqui posted:

 But that still feels incomplete. Some philosopher somewhere must have tackled why Beethoven is better than Tchaikovsky, and both are leagues better than Eminem.

But Beethoven's quartets are better than anything written in the last 100 years 

I am not a fan of a top 40 nor Eminen, but Music is art.

Artists' objective is to communicate with human souls. If someone is moved by the music of Eminen then, that's good music for them. And if Beethoven's music does not penetrate a soul, then that's not good music for them.

I am not completely convinced you can put a hierarchy in music. We have a tendency to put classical music at the top of the food chain. I think Bach and Beethoven is no better than the Beatles or Dylan.

In my household Handel sits comfortably right next to Hancock and Sir Roland Hanna  on my record shelf.

Do you really think that?
I would have thought that most people would agree that the music of Parsifal is of a higher quality than that of Rienzi or that Verdi’s Otello and Falstaff contain better music than Ernani, good though it is.
So if there is a hierarchy within a composers works, why not between composers?