HDX to NDS.

I don't own an HDX but I shoud certainly consider electric S/PDIF to NDS.  

Chag -

S/SPDIF to NDS is considered a poor option.  You will not be getting the best out of the NDS.

Hi Dave,  not picking up servers is a network discovery issue & it should be easily fixed.   I assume its fully wired & not parial wireless (except to iPad/Android app control)   Do you have all the units & the wireless hub (so called 'router' ) set to DHCP ??  if not its best to be so.   Have you tried a systematic system power cycle (reboot) as that will delete confusion & re-establish order  ........    

Shut down everything connected with your network – router, all the naims, switch, control device (iPad/Pod, Android) etc...     Leave the router off for 10-15 minutes: This allows the ISP to recognise that the router has gone offline.

Restart the system in the following order
Wireless router - let it fully complete its start process.
LAN switch (if fitted) 
HDX - let it complete its start process
NDS …. it should find the network automatically but may need some manual help with the front panel buttons.
Control Device – in some cases of network discovery problems it might be beneficial to reset or even delete & re-install the app.

Hi Mike,

Yep, tried the usual fixes, but to no avail, so far.

I know that going down the S/PDIF route will resolve these issues, but wondered whether anyone who has tried this way had anything to comment about sound quality.

Paul Quigley ie posted:

S/SPDIF to NDS is considered a poor option.  You will not be getting the best out of the NDS.

Where on earth did you get this from??? A quality SPDIF just like a quality media transfer via Ethernet into the NDS is a superb option and the NDS will be maximusing the quality of the source using its internal design, decoupling, transport decoding and precision clocking via i2s from the DSP processor to the DACs.. just like when using its internal streaming board. Absolutely feel free to use the NDS with an SPDIF source, preferably a quality source, to get the best from the NDS.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Paul Quigley ie posted:

S/SPDIF to NDS is considered a poor option.  You will not be getting the best out of the NDS.

Where on earth did you get this from??? A quality SPDIF just like a quality media transfer via Ethernet into the NDS is a superb option and the NDS will be maximusing the quality of the source using its internal design, decoupling, transport decoding and precision clocking via i2s from the DSP processor to the DACs.. just like when using its internal streaming board. Absolutely use the NDS with an SPDIF source, preferably a quality source, to get the best from the NDS.

i don't agree, but will not say it is a poor option too, but hdx/nds in upnp is better for sound quality. In spdif, the player is the hdx and you use only the dac part of the nds. The nds is only used as a dac.....

I know, some prefer the spdif mode, but it is due to poor network optimization.  In optimal conditions, nds with hdx sounds best in upnp mode. I have done the test as some.

dave marshall posted:

Hi Guys,

I'm running an HDX as a ripper / server into my NDS via UPnP.

Recently, I've been having network issues with the the NDS failing to pick up any UPnP servers.

Rather than attempt to resolve this, when my knowledge of all thing networking is limited, to say the least, the plan is to connect the two units using a Toslink cable, which will arrive early next week.

This ought to solve the connection problem, but does anyone have experience in doing things this way, as far as it's effect on sound quality is concerned?

Thanks,

Dave.

Hi Dave, yes assuming there is not a fault in the HDX or NDS, the simplest way to ensure all should be fine is to connect a basic switch like a little Netgear between your HDX and NDS.

Discovery is actually handled by software, and if using the above, the switch simply forwards the discovery broadcast messages from the appropriate devices, and the partnering devices will simply respond.

if you have wifi on your home network that connects to your switch, you can run an iOS app called Net Analyzer and when you scan your home network you should see a little 'U' against your streamer and against your HDX.. and if you do your 'network discovery' is almost certainly working fine. This sort of thing is not really going to affect SQ.

Simon

French Rooster posted:

i don't agree, but will not say it is a poor option too, but hdx/nds in upnp is better for sound quality.

That is entirely a subjective assessment and not based on any particular technical reasoning other  than your personal preference.. which is fair enough... 

French Rooster posted:

...... In spdif, the player is the hdx and you use only the dac part of the nds.... 

No, this is factually incorrect and mis leading and misrepresents the value of the NDS in my opinion

The Naim streamers (at least the NDX and NDS) use a streamer module that front ends Apple Authentication (on NDX), Ethernet, WLAN and USB - this feeds via a buffer into the Digital Audio Isolation module - this is the module that switches between the SPDIF, Inbuilt radio (on NDX) and the streamer module. From this point onwards the digital processing path is the same - so it feeds in to the DSP processor and the RAM buffer fed by the precision local DSP clock. This oversampled digital data is then passes through an i2s opto isolator into a reclocking gate and finally into the DAC chips. 

All the text in italics is common whether UPnP or SPDIF. The streaming module is relatively small part in the chain - and whose main job is to manage the ethernet for a reliable data stream - obviously you don't need to do that with SPDIF

Simon

simon,     in spdif mode the hdx is the player and nds the dac. In the app you have to choose "hdx", not "nds".  Perhaps the term player is not the most technically appropriate, but in spdif mode you use only the dac part of the nds. It is a fact.

But these are just conceptual terms... with UPnP media streaming, the little streaming board in the NDS/NDX is told what tracks to spool by the Naim app (or the front push button ARM controller) and simply fetches them. With SPDIF the media from the tracks is pushed.. one is pulling the other is pushing... these are architectural media workflow differences and largely peripheral to the SQ functionality and capability of the NDS... that was my point.

French Rooster posted:

simon,     in spdif mode the hdx is the player and nds the dac. In the app you have to choose "hdx", not "nds".  Perhaps the term player is not the most technically appropriate, but in spdif mode you use only the dac part of the nds. It is a fact.

Correct.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Paul Quigley ie posted:

S/SPDIF to NDS is considered a poor option.  You will not be getting the best out of the NDS.

Where on earth did you get this from??? A quality SPDIF just like a quality media transfer via Ethernet into the NDS is a superb option and the NDS will be maximusing the quality of the source using its internal design, decoupling, transport decoding and precision clocking via i2s from the DSP processor to the DACs.. just like when using its internal streaming board. Absolutely feel free to use the NDS with an SPDIF source, preferably a quality source, to get the best from the NDS.

I did a demo of SPDIF from the HDX to the NDS a few years ago and streaming from the NDS was clearly better.

Paul Quigley ie posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Paul Quigley ie posted:

S/SPDIF to NDS is considered a poor option.  You will not be getting the best out of the NDS.

Where on earth did you get this from??? A quality SPDIF just like a quality media transfer via Ethernet into the NDS is a superb option and the NDS will be maximusing the quality of the source using its internal design, decoupling, transport decoding and precision clocking via i2s from the DSP processor to the DACs.. just like when using its internal streaming board. Absolutely feel free to use the NDS with an SPDIF source, preferably a quality source, to get the best from the NDS.

I did a demo of SPDIF from the HDX to the NDS a few years ago and streaming from the NDS was clearly better.

Interesting, I did so too with a Sonos serving local UPnP DLNA media via Toslink into NDS a few years back - and although there were sonic differences compared to inbuilt NDS UPnP DLNA streaming - one was not definitely 'better' than the other (lossless 44.1/16/2), although the nod went to the inbuilt NDS streamer no doubt because of the crosstalk coming from Sonos transport clock... and using an NDX with off board DAC the differences get further less - no doubt because of the component decoupling..

Get a rock solid, low noise, properly buffered and terminated transport clock and you might just prefer the SPDIF input - and certainly not all ethernet media transfers from media servers are the same either - and differences on inter frame timing and frame rate can affect streamer SQ (albeit subtly). I have shared my  mini study of this with Naim - and apparently I understand that changes have been made in the new Uniti series to mitigate. The current streamer board in the current streamers really is a tiny component part in the replay chain....

Ah well, Toslink cable arrived today, now installed, and ............. I now have my music back once more.

The only issue now is that, as suggested above by French Rooster, the HDX now seems to be acting as the controller, as I'm now having to use nServe in my iPad, to select choons, rather than the Naim app.

Not in itself a huge issue, other than the fact that system automation, and thence, the volume control, is available only within the Naim app!

It's never easy, is it?

Still, I'll see if I can't resolve the uPnP issues, and have dropped Phil Harris an email to see if he can bring his not inconsiderable talents to bear upon things.

For the moment, I don't care, just happy to be immersed in the music once again .......... Tidal got me through the last couple of weeks, but it's not the same as listening to your own stuff ......... or is that so last century? 

dave marshall posted:

Ah well, Toslink cable arrived today, now installed, and ............. I now have my music back once more.

The only issue now is that, as suggested above by French Rooster, the HDX now seems to be acting as the controller, as I'm now having to use nServe in my iPad, to select choons, rather than the Naim app.

Not in itself a huge issue, other than the fact that system automation, and thence, the volume control, is available only within the Naim app!

It's never easy, is it?

Still, I'll see if I can't resolve the uPnP issues, and have dropped Phil Harris an email to see if he can bring his not inconsiderable talents to bear upon things.

For the moment, I don't care, just happy to be immersed in the music once again .......... Tidal got me through the last couple of weeks, but it's not the same as listening to your own stuff ......... or is that so last century? 

i hope you will enjoy music in your setting. But , being curious, why don't you want to use nds in upnp mode?   with minimal tweak on the network ( good lan to the nds and linear ps on the switch) , upnp is clearly better: better prat, bigger soundstage, better dynamics...

But i must agree that in spdif it is simplier, only one ethernet cable....

The HDX went off piste to have some work done, but we can't get into that on the forum.

Let's just say that UPnP worked fine previously. 

hey DAVE,        i understand: you have network issue. We had all these problems at the beginning, and yes, it is frustrating.  But you will succeed.   If i remember well, you have to create a network share on your pc: hdx, pc, nds on the same network share.  But ask Simon or Adam Zielinski, they will help better you.

dave marshall posted:

The HDX went off piste to have some work done, but we can't get into that on the forum.

Let's just say that UPnP worked fine previously. 

Aaaaah, that HDX......I remember now! The plot thickens 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Paul Quigley ie posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Paul Quigley ie posted:

S/SPDIF to NDS is considered a poor option.  You will not be getting the best out of the NDS.

Where on earth did you get this from??? A quality SPDIF just like a quality media transfer via Ethernet into the NDS is a superb option and the NDS will be maximusing the quality of the source using its internal design, decoupling, transport decoding and precision clocking via i2s from the DSP processor to the DACs.. just like when using its internal streaming board. Absolutely feel free to use the NDS with an SPDIF source, preferably a quality source, to get the best from the NDS.

I did a demo of SPDIF from the HDX to the NDS a few years ago and streaming from the NDS was clearly better.

Interesting, I did so too with a Sonos serving local UPnP DLNA media via Toslink into NDS a few years back - and although there were sonic differences compared to inbuilt NDS UPnP DLNA streaming - one was not definitely 'better' than the other (lossless 44.1/16/2), although the nod went to the inbuilt NDS streamer no doubt because of the crosstalk coming from Sonos transport clock... and using an NDX with off board DAC the differences get further less - no doubt because of the component decoupling..

Get a rock solid, low noise, properly buffered and terminated transport clock and you might just prefer the SPDIF input - and certainly not all ethernet media transfers from media servers are the same either - and differences on inter frame timing and frame rate can affect streamer SQ (albeit subtly). I have shared my  mini study of this with Naim - and apparently I understand that changes have been made in the new Uniti series to mitigate. The current streamer board in the current streamers really is a tiny component part in the replay chain....

I suspect that that the PSDIF output from the HDX may not be perfect. I say this because an NDX SPDIF into an nDac was better than the HDX into the nDAC.  

For me the sonos is way behind the HDX when streaming but it is my solution for Tidle and is sort of good enough for now at that.

The tests I did were done  using the Naim DC-1 digital cable which was considered at the time as the best solution but things have moved on since.

Thanks

  Paul