Switches and sound quality

Granthar posted:

After reading a few posts in here I am toying with buying a dedicated switch for my Naim and NAS, probably a Cisco 8 Port using CAT 7 cables.

To get the best out of it is it best to connect to my wireless router via an SFP RJ45 module so it is optically isolated? Will it make any difference?

optically isolated?   wireless router?  sfp rj45 module?    i don't understand, can you explain?

a dedicated switch: yes.   cisco: 2960 model ( used/ factory reset/ refurbished). or other switch with a good linear ps.    good lan for the streamer side.   eventually lan isolator or optical bridge.  you can go to topics as:  cisco 2960 switch,  linear ps on nas and switch,  lan isolator.

But you will see different opinions on the network optimization.   Good luck

Sorry, BT router with wi-fi, SFP module slots into the Cisco router and can add either a fibre or RJ45 port. I believe that these convert rj45 into optical digital, I maybe wrong though.

It's well worth getting a switch to connect the Hifi bits together. I bought a used Cisco 2960 for £50 and found a very worthwhile improvement, using AudioQuest Vodka cables, but no optical isolation or anything else. There is a long thread about it that you will find via a search. 

If you need more ethernet ports get a switch. 

Don't get sucked into all the nonsense.

Granthar posted:

After reading a few posts in here I am toying with buying a dedicated switch for my Naim and NAS, probably a Cisco 8 Port using CAT 7 cables.

To get the best out of it is it best to connect to my wireless router via an SFP RJ45 module so it is optically isolated? Will it make any difference?

The SFP will only makes sense if and when Naim use fibre SFP on their streamers or you need to have an Ethernet segment longer than 100 metres.

Cat7 is not necessary at all for Ethernet, indeed is not formally certified for Ethernet, so it's use is totally arbitrary.

Not all Cisco switches are at all the same. Some have experienced sonic preference with their Catalyst models (2960, 3560 etc) when connected to Naim audio equipment.. including me, but it's not universal.

Some people on this forum seem to enjoy adding elements to their home network to adjust local RFI coupling and clock noise  such as consumer twisted pair to fibre converters, transformer power supplies to NAS .. Yada Yada Yada .. it would appear hit and miss but if you are that way inclined you can certainly tweak to your heart's content to 'tune' the sound to taste.

garyi posted: 

Don't get sucked into all the nonsense.

100% +1   The purpose of SFP is to enable gigabit speeds over few kilometers of fiber (optical)   What is the point of adding another layer of connections (& I expect a level of noise as well) to send data over a few metres.     And you don't need gigabit capability for audio,  it operates at 100Mb/s 

Mike, not quite, the purpose of SFP modules is to allow modular transceivers on commercial network equipment of either twisted pair or fibre variants as per need .. fibre modules are typically used for greater than 100m segments which is why they are typically on the uplink ports on non consumer switches which for a commercial installation may well often exceed 100 metres in length..

Fibre comes in different catagories just like twisted pair to allow different distances and bandwidths.... multimode fibre which is typical for premise installations is only usually operable to 550metres, but is cheaper fibre as well as using cheaper SFPs. It also can be used for short fibre runs. There are minimum distances for fibre that vary on type.

For the average home with less than 100metre segments, unless your audio equipment is directly fibre enabled (Naim currently isn't) I can't see much point in using fibre

Mike-B posted:

garyi posted: 

Don't get sucked into all the nonsense.

100% +1   The purpose of SFP is to enable gigabit speeds over few kilometers of fiber (optical)   What is the point of adding another layer of connections (& I expect a level of noise as well) to send data over a few metres.     And you don't need gigabit capability for audio,  it operates at 100Mb/s 

The older Cisco switches some have used (on Simon's recommendation) have a GB SFP port, and 100MB RJ45 ports, so I imagine they might work quite nicely to link from fibre to a Naim streamer. In fact, it's something I might investigate myself, as my LAN is optical (not for sound quality reasons) and a Cisco switch might be a better thing to use than a consumer grade media converter. The problem most likely to trip me up is that I have no idea how to manage a switch!

Chris, those are uplink ports and are found in many commercial grade switches. Unless your Naim equipment supports SFP allowing a fibre transceiver to be used, and none do at present,  there is, I suggest, little point in using fibre for most setups with regular domestic dimensions.

The so called optical isolation is a red herring, in my opinion, as one would need fibre to electrical converters which are going to add their own noise and PHY sync clock noise... they are most likely just moving any quiescent noise around or 'shaping' it in a hit and miss way to suit 'taste'. If electrical noise is an issue I'd recommend a quality switch with a quality (and I don't mean audiophile) Ethernet cable, and slap some ferrite chokes around the ends to improve common mode electrical noise rejection. If you had electrical to fibre converters I would still strongly recommend this.. as they could be adding even more noise than a quality switch.

The other area for SQ for streaming is inter frame timing consistency and frame throughput driving TCP behaviour and this is driven by OS type, hardware platform and media server app type of your media server... less talk about this on the forum despite being measurable and deterministic, I guess because you can't easily tweak it with buying 'stuff'. But it's sonic effects are comparable to playing different codec types. One exception, Tidal, although usually an extreme case, is discussed in terms of SQ and is driven by these parameters.

The Catalyst switches that have been discussed in this thread will, if at their factory default settings, function correctly for you without any configuration or scripting (otherwise known as 'managing').. so you wouldn't need to do anything specific or have any specific prior knowledge.

After reading all these posts about switches impact on SQ, I decided to have a go at it. I replaced my Netgear 105 with a more advanced version - Netgear GSS108EPP POE+, and the SQ (at least in my system) has improved. Very clear when I listen to iRadio or Spotify.

Chrissw19 posted:

..............I replaced my Netgear 105 with a more advanced version - Netgear GSS108EPP POE+, and the SQ (at least in my system) has improved. Very clear when I listen to iRadio or Spotify.

What Netgear 105 did you replace - GS or FS  ???   I got into a switch SQ test with some mates a while back & I dug out my study FS105 to add to the mix.  The difference between it & the GS105 was obvious,  whereas the difference between GS105 & the switches we were actually listening to was not.   

It was the GS105.

Simon, I already have an optical LAN (as opposed to just a short fibre link) mainly because our house is very exposed to lightning strikes, particularly via the phone line which runs above roof level. A couple of years ago a strike destroyed a Unitiserve, Airport Extreme, and the heavy wooden box they lived in was blown apart. Optical isolation seemed like a sensible preventative measure. I used POF cables, as they are very easy to terminate, and the very thin unterminated cables are relatively easy to route, even through crumbling half metre thick internal walls. 

Instead of using a potentially noisy media converter for my streamer network connection, I was wondering if an FMC into a Cisco 2960 would provide a better option. If so, I would need to buy a non-OEM SFP, and I'm pretty sure I would need to configure the switch to work with it, but I have to admit to being entirely clueless as to how this is done. 

Apologies to the OP for jumping into your thread, but hopefully this is of some relevance. 

ok, so you want to use SFPs... so the key thing is to use a compatible SFP for your switch and the one at the one other end of the fibre is compatible. The SFPs will determine the fibre connection type, the mode and frequency. The compatible SFPs for a 2960 are here https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/...x.html#_Toc490141170

I suggest you use a 'GLC-SX-MM' type - nice and cheap and can use cheap multimode fibre terminated with LC connectors. Totally suitable for infrastructure fibre cabling as it has relatively limited reach and regular speeds up 1Gbps. (but you will need to check what you are plugging into at the other end if not the same SFP)

As far as some of the 2960 8 port switches they have dual SFP / RJ45 uplink ports and so only one of them is active at a time. Plug the compatible SFP in - ensure the RJ45 socket is empty and reboot... if there are issues and its 'stuck' you will need to log into the switch... not difficult but probably frightening if you have never done before...

Thanks Simon, the issue I have with SFPs is that my optical network is POF which is different to regular fibre, and runs  650nm wavelength. To my knowledge, there is only one maker of SFPs for POF, and that isn't Cisco. So I'd probably have to buy one as an experiment. Because it's a non-OEM device, I understand that I'd have to reconfigure the switch to make it work.

I am trying to be help to others and share my experiences of the importance of the switch. To me, it is the secret to sound quality and more important than the Ethernet cables. My findings are in a very high end Naim system ( over £80,000, I hate discussing cost but just to give my option some validity). Simon in Suffolk is a fantastic knowledge base to ask informative answers with incredible experience. I have recently bought a cisco2960 and find it very good but not top of the tree, I am getting a 48v lps to loan to seeing this can give it the 10% benefit needed ( the lps will cost £700 as it is no expense spared and shows how vitaI I feel this link in the chain is. 

As I have mentioned previously, I have found the Paul Pang zxyel oxco switch to be unmatched  but it has floating earth /ground which causes major problems with the 552 pre amp (If anyone can sort this I will be held to ransom as it would resolve perfection as far as I am concerned).

 And Simon in Suffolk, I would greatly appreciate a telephone conversation if you have time in September.

Thanks for listening

ChrisSU posted:

Thanks Simon, the issue I have with SFPs is that my optical network is POF which is different to regular fibre, and runs  650nm wavelength. To my knowledge, there is only one maker of SFPs for POF, and that isn't Cisco. So I'd probably have to buy one as an experiment. Because it's a non-OEM device, I understand that I'd have to reconfigure the switch to make it work.

Chris, the SFP does need to be made by Cisco for it to work - but if the model type is not listed as compatible by Cisco for a particular device - then it probably won't. There is I don't think much configuration of the switch you can do here - although you see the details of the device on the switch

Simon

RICHYH posted:

 And Simon in Suffolk, I would greatly appreciate a telephone conversation if you have time in September.

Thanks for listening

Drop me an email - you can find a way to reach me via my bio