Optimizing streaming SQ

To be honest it sounds like you are pretty much there - without going into OCD mode. Its worth pointing out if you haven't noticed already some people consider WAV files sounds better with Naim that other formats.

Simon

Hi JS,  it looks like you have it all pretty well sorted.    dBpoweramp is about the best, at least for me with MS Win-10.        All the established download sites, given the same release & bit/sample rates, are the same SQ,  price is another matter.  You can find SQ variables with old recordings that are remastered,  some releases can be better than others & a little www research is worth the time.       You will find a lot of forum discussion over file types (WAV vs FLAC etc) this leads into side subjects like transcoding.  Personally I keep it simple & only buy (or convert to) WAV as that is the best with Naim.  I also buy DSD when it's available, but only with acoustic folk & simple jazz.    I've tested a few NAS & UPnP software with friends & could not find a difference worth considering between any combination.   The only SQ improvement I have found with a NAS type unit is with a Melco,  I might go that way next time.      How are your ethernets connected from NAS to 272,  via the wireless router/hub ports or a switch;  I've found a switch can bring SQ gains over a basic router.   

Anyhow,  an interesting question,  I will be reading the feedback with interest.

Thanks Mike-B and Simon. I have a direct ethernet connection,CAT-6 I believe, between a switch that is connected to a router, and then to the 272 although its a very long run possibly 50 feet. I was told to download in FLAC when downloading from internet and I'm not sure what I'm doing with rips. Is it possible its all getting converted to WAV before it gets to the 272 because I think they all seem to be WAV when I look at the Naim app while playing. I have a QNAP NAS which I assume goes into the switch.

jsaudio posted:

Thanks Mike-B and Simon. I have a direct ethernet connection,CAT-6 I believe, between a switch that is connected to a router, and then to the 272 although its a very long run possibly 50 feet. I was told to download in FLAC when downloading from internet and I'm not sure what I'm doing with rips. Is it possible its all getting converted to WAV before it gets to the 272 because I think they all seem to be WAV when I look at the Naim app while playing. I have a QNAP NAS which I assume goes into the switch.

i don't know which nas you have, but if it has smps power supply, which is noisy, you can power your nas with a good linear ps( if the nas has dc output at the back/ 5v or 12v).

You can also add a lan isolator between your router and the switch.

finally you can try also the cisco 2960 switch ( used).   For me all this tweaks add a significant improvement, as a lot of members on different forums...

You can set Asset to transcode your FLAC file to WAV as they're served up.

jsaudio posted:

Thanks Mike-B and Simon. I have a direct ethernet connection,CAT-6 I believe, between a switch that is connected to a router, and then to the 272 although its a very long run possibly 50 feet. I was told to download in FLAC when downloading from internet and I'm not sure what I'm doing with rips. Is it possible its all getting converted to WAV before it gets to the 272 because I think they all seem to be WAV when I look at the Naim app while playing. I have a QNAP NAS which I assume goes into the switch.

Hi JS,  your reply hints that you had your system set up for you & it seems its been done well with a switch included,   50 feet of ethernet is good, the standard for ethernet is up to 100 meters (328 ft).  Downloading in FLAC is good,  & yes you're right because it shows as WAV on the 272 it means your Asset (NAS media server software) has been set to transcode;  that is to change the FLAC code to WAV before sending the data to 272.  

Seems like you're good to go    

Again,thanks for the input. Is there a difference in SQ if I use my Mac/DB poweramp with internal drive to rip to NAS versus a Naim Uniti Core for example or will it be the same?

I have also noted that frequently streaming from Tidal HiFi sounds "better" to me than the same track either downloaded from internet or sometimes streamed from my NAS from a ripped CD. Is that possible?

I'd stick with the nas. I once compared a UnitiServe with my nas and the latter was better. If you want to make a significant improvement you'd be much better getting SL din to XLR cables. 

I've tried Tidal and it sounds a lot worse than cd rips streamed from my nas. Perhaps it's much better in the US, though your findings do seem odd. 

In theory a dBpoweramp/Mac ripped CD should sound the same as any other ripping machine.  I have no real experience of rippers, but have some observations noted:  I 'borrowed' some albums from my daughters Vortexbox that were ripped to FLAC (for Sonos) & I've since found my own dBpoweramp/PC rips and/or bought 16bit downloads of the same albums were better.     A friend of mine had a Naim UnitiServe,  once all his CD's were ripped (& other reasons) he eventually sold it & went to a NAS, he claims the NAS SQ is better.   Others on the forum have mixed opinions of the UnitiServe SQ.   Personally I don't see the point once all CD's are ripped & additionally prefer the flexibility of both dBpoweramp features & my own abilities.

Yes its possible Tidal might sound better,  your ears are your own ears.   I understand Tidal HiFI is or can be 24/96kHz so in that case it will sound good.    But are you comparing 24bit Tidal to 24bit NAS streaming.       I have given up on Tidal but when I did use it I did not find the SQ any better than CD or 16bit downloads,  in fact it was not as good.    

Tidal HiFi through Naim with Naim app is only 16 bit "CD Quality". The Masters or MQA is only available via the desktop app and for full MQA,through an MQA capable DAC/decoder. Don't know if Naim will ever buy into the MQA deal with Tidal which is currently the only possible "Hi Def"or greater than 16 bit internet streaming available in US.

jsaudio posted:

Tidal HiFi through Naim with Naim app is only 16 bit "CD Quality". The Masters or MQA is only available via the desktop app and for full MQA,through an MQA capable DAC/decoder. Don't know if Naim will ever buy into the MQA deal with Tidal which is currently the only possible "Hi Def"or greater than 16 bit internet streaming available in US.

if you want to upgrade streaming from nas, you should consider the uniticore or add, if possible, a linear ps to your nas.  Normally, with a network a little optimized, streaming from a nas or something like a core or melco is better than streaming from tidal.

We are a lot to have experimented that.  At the beginning, i could not see differences between streaming from my unitserve and tidal( 16/44 files). I added a linear ps to my serve, lan isolation, good lan cable between dedicated switch and my nds, and replaced the netgear switch by cisco 2960 . I am no more listening to tidal.....streaming locally from my unitserve is now a good step better.

For me Tidal (HiFi version) is rather good and appears to have improved SQ recently. But it will, and could never, compete with the quality of decent downloads and locally streamed files. That is not the point of Tidal though, well not for me anyway. I use Tidal for discovery of new (to me) music, the very best of which I will either download in hi res, or if not available as a hi res download I buy the CD and rip on my Unitiserve. At the moment I do not have a NAS, so I can't compare the streaming quality of NAS vs US.

For me, the most significant streaming optimisation tweaks have been: the introduction of a Netgear switch; upgrading the Netgear switch to a Cisco 2960 switch; the addition of a 'proper' power supply to my Unitiserve; the replacement of the supplied SMPS on my switch with an iFi iPower low noise SMPS and the subsequent redeployment of the iPower to my BT HH5 router; the introduction of decent quality ethernet cables; the introduction of a few ferrite cores on SMPS power cables and ethernet cables, though it is difficult to say what impact this had.

[@mention:48872963983698699] did the ipower on your router have a similar effect as when it was on your switch? I've recently added an ipower to my Cisco switch and I found it had a subtle smoothing effect. I'd add another to my router if it did similar there for my Tidal listening. 

[@mention:51970829741422995]

I'd say you are probably better off testing alternative streaming cables if you have not done so yet. Their effect can be far from 'subtle'.

Hey Adam. I've recently added a Meicord between router and switch to good effect. Obviously that only adds to Tidal and Iradio. Will have to play with some decent cables between switch and 272 at some point. 

If you look back you might find a detailed description of the effect I heard on introducing the iFi iPower (at that time to the Netgear switch). Yes, it had a smoothing effect and some added fine detail from memory. The effect is undoubtedly subtle but noticeable nonetheless. When I replaced the Netgear with the Cisco switch, the iFi iPower became redundant so I tried putting on my BT HH5 router. Again a subtle improvement at best but I convinced myself I preferred the (claimed lower noise) iFi on the HH5 as opposed to the cheapie supplied SMPS. How much of this is the dreaded placebo effect is anyone's guess. All that matters is that I perceive an improvement, if rather subtle in magnitude.

With regards to ethernet cables, I have Audioquest Vodka on the most crucial legs between switch and US and between switch and NDS and I have the cheaper Audioquest Cinnamon elsewhere. I got a rather good deal on the Vodka and probably would not have paid the full asking price. Cinnamon is probably better VFM in most systems.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Nigel 

nigelb posted:

If you look back you might find a detailed description of the effect I heard on introducing the iFi iPower (at that time to the Netgear switch). Yes, it had a smoothing effect and some added fine detail from memory. The effect is undoubtedly subtle but noticeable nonetheless. When I replaced the Netgear with the Cisco switch, the iFi iPower became redundant so I tried putting on my BT HH5 router. Again a subtle improvement at best but I convinced myself I preferred the (claimed lower noise) iFi on the HH5 as opposed to the cheapie supplied SMPS. How much of this is the dreaded placebo effect is anyone's guess. All that matters is that I perceive an improvement, if rather subtle in magnitude.

With regards to ethernet cables, I have Audioquest Vodka on the must crucial legs between switch and US and between switch and NDS and I have the cheaper Audioquest Cinnamon elsewhere. I got a rather good deal on the Vodka and probably would not have paid the full asking price. Cinnamon is probably better VFM in most systems.

Hope this helps.

i noticed the same as you when i got the ifi power on my last netgear switch: subtle but real improvement. But after i bought a big linear ps( uptone js2) which powered my serve and switch ( 2 outputs on this ps): the improvement was immediate and more than subtle.

The same with vodka audioquest lan cables that replaced common cat 7.  

But the biggest improvement, for me on my system, was the introduction of the optical bridge: 2 fmc ( tp link) converters with optical cables, between the switch and the streamer ( powered by linear ps too).  More fluency, bigger soundstage, and more natural sound. The effect was quite dramatic.

bits are not only bits.      

Finkfan posted:

Hey Adam. I've recently added a Meicord between router and switch to good effect. Obviously that only adds to Tidal and Iradio. Will have to play with some decent cables between switch and 272 at some point. 

In my experience the biggest impact comes from the switch > streamer leg. 

I also use quality patch-cords between network components that handle streaming duties.

Hey JS, j'see what you started ?..   All good stuff    

Indeed - but JS I would keep away from consumer grade optical bridges put back to back on electrical ethernet segment - to me they have suspect PHY layer and clocks and not really adding anything over a regular consumer grade switch - and if you don't need to do longer than 100 metre runs then not necessary - unless of course you like the added clock cross talk from them compared to a quality switch in which case perhaps fair enough.. there other item to be wary of that was quite popular around these parts is a so called passive LAN isolator. I am fairly sure most push the Ethernet segment out of spec which is not good at all and will create added noise and twisted pair reflections on the wires. I did try one of these devices - a variant manufactured in Japan  - SQ took a dive with my quality switches and NDX and  it interfered with the link negotiation of my RapsberryPis...

The other thing I would be wary of is slapping any old transformer analogue power supply onto a digital load - if it is hasn't specifically been designed for that load - or the powered device has been designed to be carefully decoupled, then you are possibly radiating a lot of RF from the power lead.. I am sure many  like the effect of added RF and noise cross talk - but I cant help thinking there are better ways of tuning the sound to suit.

You can read about a lot of mysticism and tweaks on the forum with questionable cause and effect - so although obviously there is no harm in having fun and tinkering  -  I wouldn't assume there is much science to it - and preferential sound might be actually caused by causing more low level noise and RF cross talk...

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Indeed - but JS I would keep away from consumer grade optical bridges put back to back on electrical ethernet segment - to me they have suspect PHY layer and clocks and not really adding anything over a regular consumer grade switch - and if you don't need to do longer than 100 metre runs then not necessary - unless of course you like the added clock cross talk from them compared to a quality switch in which case perhaps fair enough.. there other item to be wary of that was quite popular around these parts is a so called passive LAN isolator. I am fairly sure most push the Ethernet segment out of spec which is not good at all and will create added noise and twisted pair reflections on the wires. I did try one of these devices - a variant manufactured in Japan  - SQ took a dive with my quality switches and NDX and  it interfered with the link negotiation of my RapsberryPis...

The other thing I would be wary of is slapping any old transformer analogue power supply onto a digital load - if it is hasn't specifically been designed for that load - or the powered device has been designed to be carefully decoupled, then you are possibly radiating a lot of RF from the power lead.. I am sure many  like the effect of added RF and noise cross talk - but I cant help thinking there are better ways of tuning the sound to suit.

You can read about a lot of mysticism and tweaks on the forum with questionable cause and effect - so although obviously there is no harm in having fun and tinkering  -  I wouldn't assume there is much science to it - and preferential sound might be actually caused by causing more low level noise and RF cross talk...

Simon

 

there is theory and personal experiment, and sometimes it is preferable to trust our ears than technical explanations.  

When i put the acoustic revive between the router and the switch, the sound didn't change: same dynamics, same details. But this sound had more fluency, was more natural and less edgy.  It is not esoteric or mystical, just a well known and proved tweak that really works. You have a lot of hifi brands that developed it: giso, acoustic revive, etalon....

Melco nas are one of the best nas available today because they use lan isolation inside, and high quality linear ps too.

You have tested the acoustic revive and didn't like it, but perhaps you inserted it at a wrong place.  When i first tried it, i put it between my serve and the switch: the soundstage and dynamics collapsed.  Then i inserted it before my nds, after the optical bridge: nothing more.

Finally, between the router and the switch, the effect was positive.  I don't care of the real technical reasons, just know it works very positively on my system, as for a lot of members in different forums.

The optical bridge ( fmc converters and optical cables) have the same effect, the effect is simple, positive and shared by audio members all over the world ( french naim forums, devialet chat, computer audiophile, audiosharks, audiostream...).

You try to demonstrate that linear ps and lan isolation put some noise in the chain: it is the exact contrary.  These tweaks put off some noise from the lan network, and the results are more natural sound, bigger soundstage, more fluency and less mechanical sound, better defined details too.

nigelb posted:

At the moment I do not have a NAS, so I can't compare the streaming quality of NAS vs US.

So you have no backup! 

ChrisSU posted:

nigelb posted:

At the moment I do not have a NAS, so I can't compare the streaming quality of NAS vs US.

So you have no backup! 

No backup???? Ouch....

French Rooster posted:

there is theory and personal experiment, and sometimes it is preferable to trust our ears than technical explanations.  

 

if you read my post, I say exactly that, my point is that one tends to look rather daft trying to justify it in pseudo science... if you like how you have tweaked the sound on your system, just call it as that, but don't assume there is definitely some sort of engineered determinism that will work on any other system. But it is right, in my opinion, to point out some of the tweaks discussed on this forum by perhaps less well informed  but well intentioned individuals may well push your equipment outside regulatory and functional specifications... even though you prefer the it's sound that way.

IIntrusive  RF intermodulation or RF crosstalk in audio circuits can make a sound duller and appear smoother, robbing it of detail that otherwise could  be conveyed, which on some systems may of course may make make reproduced audio more preferable and less edgey or sharp, especially with room/ speaker combinations... I personally would like to try and get the sound matching my preference without relying on random or at least minimally deterministic filtering tweaks, but clearly each to their own and ultimately there is no right or wrong way.