Greatest not obvious song writer ever

Ron Sexsmith

kuma posted:

Clemenza posted:

Dolly Parton too obvious? Not many people think of her as a songwriter, but she wrote a lot of great songs.

In the same vein, maybe Willie Nelson, too?  I did not know he wrote 'Crazy'. I thought Patsy wrote it.

Definitely Willie!

Kathleen Edwards

Kirsty MacColl

Aimee Mann

(One more vote each for) Joe Jackson and Richard Thompson

PJ Harvey

Paul Simon

Jenny Lewis

Kristin Hersh

Pretty obscure: Alex Chilton
Altho, there is a recent reissue of his old catalogue so, perhaps he's been re-discovered?

Love his silly bubble gum tunes. But there's something lyrical about it.

Graham Parker. 

+1 for Lowell George. 

Gregg Allman. 

Sorry but how does Paul Simon qualify as a not obvious song writer? There are very few more obvious song writers of the last 60 years. 

Olly posted:

Sorry but how does Paul Simon qualify as a not obvious song writer? There are very few more obvious song writers of the last 60 years. 

From what I've heard, he's obviously NOT a great songwriter.

kuma posted:

Harry Nilsson

Another genius who died too young.

Richard Strauss
IMHO, His most beautiful work were  tunes. Not those bombastic orchestral scores he's most famous for. He was a pretty good song writer.

Kuma,

I gladly second your mention of Harry Nilsson, but with at least 8 major Operas and tenths of Lieder for voice and piano or orchestra on his shoulders, calling Strauss a pretty good songwriter sounds a little patronizing and shows a curious idea of music's history. And anyway, your opinion that his orchestral works are bombastic is just an opinion, a platitude that I wouldn't have expected from you. Among his Ton Dichtungen there are trivialities and sublime moments, but at least three of them are masterpieces. The world cannot live off Matthew Passions and Messiahs forever. Graham Gouldman is a pretty good songwriter. Strauss is a genius. 

Or you were being facetious, in which case I apologize for my Nth misunderstanding of the English language.

Max

Just to keep the discussion interesting, what if I asked who's the greatest non obvious writer of symphonies? Would that make us reflect on the meaning of obvious?

And, finally, of the meaning of genius?

DrMark posted:

J.J. Cale - mainly because his best-known songs were made famous by other people.

My pick as well. Very underrated.

No one has mentioned Townes Van Zandt, lots of country rockers and people like Emmylou Harris promote his work.  I have a double record of him live alone on stage.

Also Gram Parsons, too  short life, but very influential to rock and the Stones.

Max_B posted:

Richard Strauss
IMHO, His most beautiful work were  tunes. Not those bombastic orchestral scores he's most famous for. He was a pretty good song writer.

Kuma,

I gladly second your mention of Harry Nilsson, but with at least 8 major Operas and tenths of Lieder for voice and piano or orchestra on his shoulders, calling Strauss a pretty good songwriter sounds a little patronizing and shows a curious idea of music's history. And anyway, your opinion that his orchestral works are bombastic is just an opinion, a platitude that I wouldn't have expected from you. Among his Ton Dichtungen there are trivialities and sublime moments, but at least three of them are masterpieces. The world cannot live off Matthew Passions and Messiahs forever. Graham Gouldman is a pretty good songwriter. Strauss is a genius.

Max,

Of course, R. Strauss was a superb orchestrator and composer. Not many can *paint* such a vivid pictures as Strauss. ( I do have to tackle his opera tho, at some point )

But it's more difficult to say more with less.  And his songs are so personal , they often  show a lot of sensitive human side of a composer.

Max_B posted:

Just to keep the discussion interesting, what if I asked who's the greatest non obvious writer of symphonies? Would that make us reflect on the meaning of obvious?

Surely, Schubert would be one of them?

Can't contribute much on symphonies.

Chuck Berry.   Poet Laureate of Rock 'n' Roll.  Might be obvious.  

To wit:  "You Never Can Tell".

t was a teenage wedding, and the old folks wished them well
You could see that Pierre did truly love the mademoiselle
And now the young monsieur and madame have rung the chapel bell
"C'est la vie", say the old folks, it goes to show you never can tell

They furnished off an apartment with a two room Roebuck sale
The coolerator was crammed with TV dinners and ginger ale
But when Pierre found work, the little money comin' worked out well
"C'est la vie", say the old folks, it goes to show you never can tell

They had a hi-fi phono, boy, did they let it blast
Seven hundred little records, all rock, rhythm and jazz
But when the sun went down, the rapid tempo of the music fell
"C'est la vie", say the old folks, it goes to show you never can tell

They bought a souped-up jitney, 'twas a cherry red '53
They drove it down to Orleans to celebrate the anniversary
It was there that Pierre was married to the lovely mademoiselle
"C'est la vie", say the old folks, it goes to show you never can tell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoDPPgWbfXY

Tom Waits

Charlie Chaplin: He wrote *Smile* for Modern Times. Along with most of his film scores.

kuma posted:

Max_B posted:

Just to keep the discussion interesting, what if I asked who's the greatest non obvious writer of symphonies? Would that make us reflect on the meaning of obvious?

Surely, Schubert would be one of them?

Yes. Perhaps, for once, the one.

M

I have seen mentioned a number of songwriters who are, in my opinion, very obvious songwriters (they do not anything else than write songs and sing them, safe for one who has very sparingly acted too), or songwriters who are famous for just one song or two (let's be honest) in spite of the fact that their albums are probably full of gems mainly for their connoisseurs (like, say, Gerry Rafferty or Harry Nilsson).

What I intended to say is that you probably can't be a great songwriter and, in due time, not become obvious. As far as I can tell from 50 years of experience, two generations max put any artist in his exact place in art history. See Bach, see Mahler. Not many great musician have remained obscure more than how many mediocre ones have resisted beyond the two generations law. 

So, my idea – badly expressed, probably – is that a non obvious greatest songwriter is a wrong concept and such a guy doesn't exist.

kuma posted:

Max_B posted:

Just to keep the discussion interesting, what if I asked who's the greatest non obvious writer of symphonies? Would that make us reflect on the meaning of obvious?

Surely, Schubert would be one of them?

Or Albert Roussel, a naval engineer, and Charles Ives, owner of an insurance company. Both great writers of symphonic music but their professional life really makes them non obvious.

Daveas posted:

Walter Becker and Donald Fagen or maybe they're too obvious.

They're almost the most obvious.

Try Lowell George, Joe Walsh, Al Stewart (!:-)) and Robyn Hitchcock.

I am struggling to think of one. Maybe Slim Gaillard? He wrote the most non-obvious songs. Captain Beefheart? Vivian Stanshall?

Due to the  passage of time, both Flanders & Swann and Tom Lehrer are probably less obvious than they would once have been, I still listen to and laugh at their songs.

Billy Strayhorn: who wrote many of Ellington's hits. Here, Ellington actually giving him a credit.

He wrote one of my favourite ballad Lush Life. Hard to believe he was only 23 when he wrote it!.

David Gedge.

Don't just take my word for it: “The boy Gedge has written some of the best love songs of the Rock ‘n’ Roll Era. You may dispute this, but I’m right and you’re wrong!”
(John Peel: 02 September 1999)