Harbeth and Naim

Heard the Super HL5 Plus for the first time several weeks ago. In fact my first Harbeths period. They were lovely. Only listened for a few minutes but I was mightily impressed. I've only heard Pro-ac at CES but I was impressed with them as well. You'll just have to listen.......I don't see you going wrong either way. 

I spent many years with Harbeth P3s (two different variants) - fantastic midrange, I loved them.

(Then I heard panels, and everything sounds boxy and slow after that...)

in the best part of 50 years   I have quads  and never feel ive missed out,yes the bass is alittle light .    the quality of panels is that you hear every sound at any volume .and that's what is missing with any resonant box.   one other point is that boxes produce external vibrations than can effect all your hifi units the quads have none.  just in case I sit them on townsend stands .    ive added townsend tweeters setting 1 and with some recordings/jazz- ella etc  eg. lyn Stanley direct recording at 45 rpm ie they are  Electrostatically amazing

Harbeths and Spendor Classic Series are updated derivatives of the classic BBC monitor designs; they share the common trait of being designed to have a neutral, genre agnostic presentation, with a very clean and coherent midrange allowing for excellent vocal presentation and good insight into the music.  The principle sacrifice in these types of speaker design is in the bass area, there has to be compromise in one or more of the sonic properties of the bass  (extension, sensitivity, excessive damping or bass to mid coherence).  Hence the bass isn't usually as deep as you might expect from the driver and cabinet size.  There is also a degree of compromise in the HF due to diffraction effects from the wide baffle.

If you're prepared to put up with large, unstylish (but still well finished!) speakers, and prefer musical insight to artificially hyped fireworks, then they may well suit.  Some people though actually like the 'vintage' look - you can't get rid of that appearance, it's an inherent consequence of their design!

They are often criticised as 'pipe and slippers' but this is quite wrong - that's what happens when they're driven by an inadequate amplifier, or when they're compared to a speaker with an under-damped voicing that artificially accentuates transients (often also with a mid bass and HF boost) - a trait that produces a veiling level of sonic confusion in delicate signals, but also a more 'HiFi' type sound that's also appealing in it's own way.

In essence they're just a different set of engineering compromises, favouring insight and neutrality rather than other speaker designs that emphasise the dynamics of rock & pop at the expense of insight into the more delicate parts of the signal.

Huge, I noticed in my 2 years in hifi that there are BBC derivatives around and I also noticed the sonic character of them.

Why did BBC make a monitor design? Weren't there good speakers on the market already?

Ardbeg10y posted:

Huge, I noticed in my 2 years in hifi that there are BBC derivatives around and I also noticed the sonic character of them.

Why did BBC make a monitor design? Weren't there good speakers on the market already?

The original BBC monitor was designed to fit in the portacabin sized space of an outside broadcast unit, at the time there was nothing available that worked in a confined space. It was then produced under license by several other manufacturers.

Ardbeg10y posted:

Why did BBC make a monitor design? Weren't there good speakers on the market already?

At the time the BBC were building a lot of their own equipment and designing their own systems, etc. because there weren't commercial alternatives.

BBC Design and Engineering department (its had various names over the 100 odd years of the BBC) created a lot of their own technology and equipment since the earliest days of building radio transmitters.  They later developed their own cameras for TV broadcasting.  They created (perhaps not independently I don't know enough specific history) PAL for colour broadcasts, NICAM and parts of DVB technology.  They continue to lead development with things like iPlayer.  Of course there have also been failings as (iirc) BBC Engineering were the lead on various digital archiving / IT projects.

This maybe apocryphal: but I was once told there was a saying ... an elephant is just a mouse build by BBC engineering.

And no ... as NFG comments there was nothing suitable available at the time; so the BBC spec'd and designed their own speakers.

NFG posted:

Ardbeg10y posted:

Huge, I noticed in my 2 years in hifi that there are BBC derivatives around and I also noticed the sonic character of them.

Why did BBC make a monitor design? Weren't there good speakers on the market already?

The original BBC monitor was designed to fit in the portacabin sized space of an outside broadcast unit, at the time there was nothing available that worked in a confined space. It was then produced under license by several other manufacturers.

That was specifically the original LS3 speaker requirement (at least four speaker variants were made to fulfil that requirements set).  By the time the LS3/5a was designed the requirement had expanded to include control booths of smaller radio studios as well.

There was also a LS5 requirement specification set for larger 2 and 3 way systems (and at least 7 speaker variants were made to fulfil that set of requirements).

I recently went and had a demo of a couple of Harbeth models, the P3ESR and SHL5+, alongside a couple of Spendor models and a pair of Martin Logan electrostatics.  I'd have liked to try the 30.1s as well, but simply didn't get round to them.

Despite the price disparities, the one that blew me away was the P3ESR.  Phenomenal sound for the size, I really could hardly believe what was coming out of them.  And of the models tested, they were the one which fixed the aggressive high mid problem I have with my existing setup (172, 250.2, S400s).  This was with some really diverse music too - the 'only good with classical' kind of stereotype is rubbish, I think.  Dismember's guitar sound (well known within the niche of its genre) sounded spot on, Aphex Twin's Syro was great, etc.

The slight fly in the ointment was a Spendor model (not sure which, but Harbeth-style dimensions, rather than floorstanders) which sounded utterly out of this world with Chopin, but not quite right with non-piano stuff.  That Chopin, though...

I'm unconvinced that speakers are the change for me to make at the moment, so am going to set up another demo of some black box options before deciding what to do.  But I can definitely say that Harbeth and Naim made a great pairing IMO, and I'll be seriously considering Harbeths at some point in the future even if I don't go for them now.

Yes, I don't quite know what happened with Spendor's 3 way speakers.  I think they may not have quite evolved as much after the BC1 as the 2 way speakers did.

Your comment on the P3ESR is very interesting.  However if none of the others fixed the "aggressive high mid problem", then it may be that you need to put some acoustic absorption at strategic places in the room rather than changing your speakers.  Try looking at the impulse response plot using something like REW to identify room reflections and multi-path problems.

Incidentally what speaker stands were you using?

It's a pity you couldn't try the Harbeth 30.1 or Spendor SP2; comparing them to the ATC SCM19 would also be worthwhile.

Huge posted:

 ... It's a pity you couldn't try the Harbeth 30.1 or Spendor SP2; comparing them to the ATC SCM19 would also be worthwhile.

+1 - We're very happy with our ATC SCM19 speakers but I'd be interested in a Harbeth 30.1 and/or possibly a Spender SP2 comparison. FWIW, due to room layout considerations, our SCM19(s) have to be rather close to the rear/front wall, which was another plus for them.

I ran Harbeth Monitor 30s in my main system for years and loved them.  The system outgrew them eventually and as HUGE has stated i was missing out on quite a lot of low frequency action.  They still sit in my second system and are a joy to listen to whenever the chance arises.  The 40.1s i demoed were not at all bass light but too much speaker for my room space.  I also had Rogers LS 3.5/a's which had replacement drive units from Harbeth. Outstanding for a shoebox speaker.  Always sounded great with my NAIM gear and i would happily recommend to others looking to audition.

I wouldn't say the Harbeths are completely neutral but they sound very natural to my ears. I think Harbeth's tagline "the warm and fresh Harbeth sound" is quite apt though there will be some who regard the Harbeth to be coloured, so to each his own. Harbeth speakers do not accentuate the highs or the bass, and for this reason they may lack the sparkle or excitement, or how Huge has put it - artificial hyped fireworks. Obviously there will be folks who will disagree but I am with Huge here. Not too much of a surprise since I own the Super HL5 Plus so you can say I'm biased.

If one has got accustomed to the natural and (almost) uncoloured sound of the Harbeth, he will have difficulty adapting to the sound of other loudspeakers. Although I love the sound of the Proac specifically the Tablette 50 Signature, I find the sound to be artificial and not realistic. The best way I can describe it is the sound isn't representative of real instruments. The clarity and detail are all very good, but the tone and timbre of the instruments are as what that have been described earlier - artificial hyped fireworks. At some point I still hope to try the newer Proacs though I am not sure if they would serve as some short term thrills just to satisfy by curiosity or end up being keepers. One thing is for sure though, the Super HL5 are keepers for me. I have owned the SHL5s for 7 years before moving up to the SHL5 Plus. Before I made the upgrade I did consider other alternatives but my heart was pretty much set on the Harbeth. The SHL5 Plus has successfully addressed all the shortcomings of its predecessor and in my book a much improved speaker.

The Naim and Harbeth combination sounds great to me, balanced and musical. I don't like the Quad-Harbeth combination but there may be others who prefer it.

Do also listen to the Harbeth C7s - these are my harbeth favorites. More fun than any other Harbeth speaker.

I also like the c7 and the p3 most, although i own the sl5. Great speakers. I use the BBC monitors for my hifi-livetime (35/1, bc1, german 75/1), and i am lost for any other. Christoph

I like the C7s too.

It all began for me in the 70's when my wife and I went to a high end audio store in Chapel Hill, NC to buy some new speakers.  While the salesman was demoing speakers, he received a phone call.  He put on a Frank Sinatra record and left.  My wife and I were blown away by the sound and began trying to find out which speakers were playing.  We never found them.  When the salesman returned he pointed to little shoe box speakers called Rogers LS3/5a's.  Of course we bought them ($450) and used them for 36 years. I eventually put them up for sale on eBay and within an hour I had an offer for $1,000.  I thought that was amazing and took it.  I later found out I could have got double that.

Since them we've had Harbeth P3's, C7's and 30.1's  The first time my wife heard the 30.1's she turned to me and said "now that is perfect".  I've since moved on to other speakers but someday I'll downsize again and this time I'll stick with Harbeth's.  I love thin wall BBC monitors.  Back in the day my dream system was Linn, Naim and Spendor. Never could afford it.

Bud

.

Huge posted:

Yes, I don't quite know what happened with Spendor's 3 way speakers.  I think they may not have quite evolved as much after the BC1 as the 2 way speakers did.

Your comment on the P3ESR is very interesting.  However if none of the others fixed the "aggressive high mid problem", then it may be that you need to put some acoustic absorption at strategic places in the room rather than changing your speakers.  Try looking at the impulse response plot using something like REW to identify room reflections and multi-path problems.

Incidentally what speaker stands were you using?

It's a pity you couldn't try the Harbeth 30.1 or Spendor SP2; comparing them to the ATC SCM19 would also be worthwhile.

The Spendors I tried (not the D7s, but the ones which were so wonderful with piano music) were similar to the SP2, I believe - in fact they could have been an updated version, if such a thing exists?  They looked about the right size, anyway.

The stands for the Harbeths were Custom Design stands, which the dealer in question recommends as a good pairing.  I'm not sure of the model, but they looked like the FS 104.

I've been curious to try REW or similar, but always been put off by the need to buy a mic.  In this case, though, the testing demonstrated the same characteristic in the dealer's totally differently shaped room as I get at home.  I've also tried rudimentary treatments like cushions on the walls at reflection points etc to no avail.  So I'm inclined to believe it's something the boxes do.  

A very quick listen to a 272 seemed to lessen the problem, hence the plan to have a more proper look at alternative black boxes & hopefully try with my own speakers.  If a box change can fix it, then the culprit is found.  If it can't, then I'll bite the bullet to get measurements etc to nail what would then appear to be an issue with either the room or my hearing.  In fact measurements will likely eventually follow regardless.  The dealer in question didn't carry ATC, but the place I'm considering for the box audition does (though not Harbeth), so maybe I'll get to try the 19s there as well.

Anyway, sorry if that's a digression, OP, but it seems in general that plenty of folk agree about the mix of Harbeth and Naim.

I've had a 202/250dr /cd5/lp12/30.1 system for several years now. The 30.1 were bought used and unseen as I'm disabled and making the rounds of the (few) remaining audio shops is difficult. The 30.1's do most things at least very well and (surprise) the midrange is wonderful. Floor shaking bass -not even close but to me way down the list. They can be a bit too polite (usually not noticeable) and can be bettered for large scale musical numbers but they are always extremely listenable and can be used for long term, without tiring of them. The perfect speaker - no, but a thoroughly enjoyable long term speaker - not flavor of the month. Ps also have a mostly working tandberg tcd-340 and now a td20 for visual appeal all on quadraspire rack and tt shelf. Also the "stands" are folding iron bookcases from the container store weighed down with excess books- works a treat. Would definitely consider 30.1 in the short list. Music is jazz, soft rock,grateful dead,lots of vocals,fairly varied