AFGHANISTAN - the forever war

Perhaps you are all happy to let the rest of the world develop brutal internal regimes.

I am not.

The UN was set up, amongst other reasons to bring decent standards to all those nations wishing to be part of it. Providing the USA and others act in accordance with the UN and its underlying principles, I see no problem with "interfering" with the internal issues of problematic states.

OTOH, I think that the UN needs to re-evaluate its position. If the "West" feels it's standards are being eroded by China, Russia, India, or whoever, we should either push the UN to up its game, or leave and form a new alliance with renewed standards. If others wish to join such a new alliance, fine, but don't expect to take over.

The League of Nations evaporated quite nicely when it no longer served its purpose.

Just another day in Afghanistan. You would think that after 16 years the coalition forces had already learnt the few fundamental mistakes to avoid in their battle for the hearts and minds of the people.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-...-drop-070800159.html

I spent about 2 years in Dohfar back in 72/73. It was hard work, but with care, time and patience we won the hearts and minds. 

It can work. But I don't recal ever thinking "just another day" .

Oh, we kept the press well away from the action. We made mistakes from time to time and we didn't need them to keep reminding us.

Don Atkinson posted:

I spent about 2 years in Dohfar back in 72/73. It was hard work, but with care, time and patience we won the hearts and minds. 

It can work. But I don't recal ever thinking "just another day" .

Oh, we kept the press well away from the action. We made mistakes from time to time and we didn't need them to keep reminding us.

"Just another day" was said with sad sarcasm.

We already had in 2012 at the same Bagram air base a serious incident of burning Koran books which triggers wide protests all over Afghanistan leading to 30 deaths including 4 Americans. I suspect that remembering previous mistakes might have helped to prevent the latest occurrence. 

What business did the British have in Dohfar (beyond 'fighting communism') that made them win hearts and minds there? Nothing to do with oil I suppose.

Haim Ronen posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I spent about 2 years in Dohfar back in 72/73. It was hard work, but with care, time and patience we won the hearts and minds. 

It can work. But I don't recal ever thinking "just another day" .

Oh, we kept the press well away from the action. We made mistakes from time to time and we didn't need them to keep reminding us.

"Just another day" was said with sad sarcasm.

We already had in 2012 at the same Bagram air base a serious incident of burning Koran books which triggers wide protests all over Afghanistan leading to 30 deaths including 4 Americans. I suspect that remembering previous mistakes might have helped to prevent the latest occurrence. 

What business did the British have in Dohfar (beyond 'fighting communism') that made them win hearts and minds there? Nothing to do with oil I suppose.

It had nothing to do with oil. There isn't much of it down in Dhofar.

What there is could be easily be got when the road from Nizwa to Thumrait was built.

You only "win" wars like this when people have a choice that they can make without the threat of subsequent reversion under a brutal regime.

Genghis Khan fixed  Afghanistan in no time, he just came in and wiped out the whole population, I mean anyone older than 10 was to be killed.

Otherwise, a second option to hand over the country to China - they will fix it with the Russians as the junior partner.

There is a book called Return of the King by William Dalrymple about the wars between the British and Afghanistan in the 19th century a great read that contains some very depressing similarities with the present day minus the oil and the pipelines of course.

Bob the Builder posted:

There is a book called Return of the King by William Dalrymple about the wars between the British and Afghanistan in the 19th century a great read that contains some very depressing similarities with the present day minus the oil and the pipelines of course.

An excellent read. We just need the coalition forces to ride on elephants to complete the similarities.

I recommend this book on the subject (Don, to your attention):

It covers a very small reserve Green Berets unit inserted in the Pech valley in early 2003. While doing an excellent job of gaining the trust of the local population and keeping the region (they were in charge of a territory of 5000 square miles) relatively peaceful it lasted only as long as their deployment did. New replacement units used more aggressive tactics and the region reverted again to be one of the deadliest in Afghanistan.

Haim Ronen posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

There is a book called Return of the King by William Dalrymple about the wars between the British and Afghanistan in the 19th century a great read that contains some very depressing similarities with the present day minus the oil and the pipelines of course.

An excellent read. We just need the coalition forces to ride on elephants to complete the similarities.

I recommend this book on the subject (Don, to your attention):

 

It covers a very small reserve Green Berets unit inserted in the Pech valley in early 2003. While doing an excellent job of gaining the trust of the local population and keeping the region (they were in charge of a territory of 5000 square miles) relatively peaceful it lasted only as long as their deployment did. New replacement units used more aggressive tactics and the region reverted again to be one of the deadliest in Afghanistan.

Thanks Haim, I have actually read the book, but thanks any way. I might read it again.

It's over 40 years since Dhofar was brought out of the "Dark Age" and returned to Oman.

It's probably more stable than Birmingham or Bradford.

From today's NYTimes:

"KABUL, Afghanistan — Soon, American Embassy employees in Kabul will no longer need to take a Chinook helicopter ride to cross the street to a military base less than 100 yards outside the present Green Zone security district…"

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/0...&WT.nav=top-news

The US military corporations are addicted to war because they need the trillions of dollars to keep rolling in.  Name a year the US hasn't been at war with someone or other.

Jota posted:

The US military corporations are addicted to war because they need the trillions of dollars to keep rolling in.  Name a year the US hasn't been at war with someone or other.

Aside of US arm corporations you have numerous UN people who made grand careers of Afghanistan, not to mention all the fortunes being made by consulting, planing, engineering and constructions companies. They all have an interest in continuing and expanding on what has been done there in the last sixteen years.

Haim Ronen posted:

Jota posted:

The US military corporations are addicted to war because they need the trillions of dollars to keep rolling in.  Name a year the US hasn't been at war with someone or other.

Aside of US arm corporations you have numerous UN people who made grand careers of Afghanistan, not to mention all the fortunes being made by consulting, planing, engineering and constructions companies. They all have an interest in continuing and expanding on what has been done there in the last sixteen years.

I'm not sure whether you consider engineering and construction companies are a benefit or a disgrace in Afghanistan.

Don Atkinson posted:

Haim Ronen posted:

Jota posted:

The US military corporations are addicted to war because they need the trillions of dollars to keep rolling in.  Name a year the US hasn't been at war with someone or other.

Aside of US arm corporations you have numerous UN people who made grand careers of Afghanistan, not to mention all the fortunes being made by consulting, planing, engineering and constructions companies. They all have an interest in continuing and expanding on what has been done there in the last sixteen years.

I'm not sure whether you consider engineering and construction companies are a benefit or a disgrace in Afghanistan.

Fortifying the whole capital of Afghanistan doesn't look like a sound idea any way you look at it even if it involves engineering and construction.

If the Afghani security forces with the active aid and training of NATO and US troops are still unable to secure Kabul after sixteen years what do you think is the real situation in the countryside?