Electric Cars - Saviours of our environment or just another fad?

winkyincanada posted:

Tony Lockhart posted:

......I'd need a solar storage device to make a battery car useable.......

Why is that?

Because I'd rather charge a battery powered car with free electricity that has been stored after generation by solar panels than from the grid. 

Tony Lockhart posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Tony Lockhart posted:

......I'd need a solar storage device to make a battery car useable.......

Why is that?

Because I'd rather charge a battery powered car with free electricity that has been stored after generation by solar panels than from the grid. 

Yeah, I most definitely would too. I'm hoping that solar roof tiles are cheap enough to be an economic alternative when  we replace our current roof in a few years. Even then, it's likely to be an environmental/emotive choice, not an economic one though. Which is what I guess you're saying.

Yep, that's what I'm saying. To me, the cost of most things is a reflection of energy consumed. Flipping that round means at the moment I could be spending more than necessary, AND putting up with the limitations. 

I keep doing the maths, and one day I'll just say sod it, let's do it.  

Given that in the UK, the gov collects £40bn pa in fuel+VED,, and most of that is Fuel duty, how do you consider the gov might seek to make good what it will see as a substantial reduction in revenue, if we all migrate to electric vehicles ?

Probably. And I don't really care. 

It’s all unsustainable at the end of the day. Just think of the mountain of plastic now we can’t dump it on China.

Don Atkinson posted:

Given that in the UK, the gov collects £40bn pa in fuel+VED,, and most of that is Fuel duty, how do you consider the gov might seek to make good what it will see as a substantial reduction in revenue, if we all migrate to electric vehicles ?

Road pricing, general tax revenue, VAT etc., and through the reduction in healthcare costs of those now not afflicted by airborne toxins. But realistically, the almost painfully obvious solution is to place a simple % surcharge on the electricity used to charge the vehicles.

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Given that in the UK, the gov collects £40bn pa in fuel+VED,, and most of that is Fuel duty, how do you consider the gov might seek to make good what it will see as a substantial reduction in revenue, if we all migrate to electric vehicles ?

Road pricing, general tax revenue, VAT etc., and through the reduction in healthcare costs of those now not afflicted by airborne toxins. But realistically, the almost painfully obvious solution is to place a simple % surcharge on the electricity used to charge the vehicles.

Road pricing seems to me to be the fairest way forward, both in the transition period and once we are all electric .

During a transition stage, say 15 years, how would you implement a reasonably fair taxation system that maintained the overall motoring revenue stream at its current value of £40bn pa ? And in the longer-term, how would you justify to the non-car running population (ie the elderly who can't drive, and those who only walk, cycle or use public transport),  a "simple % surcharge on the electricity to charge vehicles" ?

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Given that in the UK, the gov collects £40bn pa in fuel+VED,, and most of that is Fuel duty, how do you consider the gov might seek to make good what it will see as a substantial reduction in revenue, if we all migrate to electric vehicles ?

Road pricing, general tax revenue, VAT etc., and through the reduction in healthcare costs of those now not afflicted by airborne toxins. But realistically, the almost painfully obvious solution is to place a simple % surcharge on the electricity used to charge the vehicles.

Road pricing seems to me to be the fairest way forward, both in the transition period and once we are all electric .

During a transition stage, say 15 years, how would you implement a reasonably fair taxation system that maintained the overall motoring revenue stream at its current value of £40bn pa ? And in the longer-term, how would you justify to the non-car running population (ie the elderly who can't drive, and those who only walk, cycle or use public transport),  a "simple % surcharge on the electricity to charge vehicles" ?

It is technically feasible to implement a system that recognises that power is being delivered to charge an electric vehicle. Easy for public chargers (obviously, as that's all they do). For domestic charging the split of power going to the car charger could easily be measured. The % surcharge would only apply to that component. Another less-automatic way would be to add a surcharge to the registration fees of electric vehicles to compensate for the lack of fuel taxes. An adjustment could be estimated to reflect the environmental effects of decisions to drive. The application of emissions-driven scaled registration charges existing in the UK is an example of this already in place. The calculation for electric vehicles is different, but relatively straightforward.

It will be road-pricing. Even if Winky is right that it is possible to tax the electricity used to charge vehicles, that is still a blunt instrument compared to road-pricing in the sense that it doesn't discriminate on the time and type of road used.  Without that ability, the extent to which you can influence drivers' behaviour is severely limited to things like total usage and emissions (of the vehicle used).  The prize from road-pricing is being able to influence, through cost per mile/km, when people choose to travel and what roads they use which potentially has significant benefits for reducing congestion, emissions in vulnerable areas and increased efficiency through people and road-carried freight getting from a to b more quickly. This last benefit could provide quite a boost to GDP.    

On a separate point, and prompted by Winky's advocacy of electric car-maker Tesla, I had a browse at their website recently. Two big shocks for me (a) the 0-60 times for these cars are blisteringly fast and (b) how expensive the cars are. I saw nothing under £80K.

MDS posted:

It will be road-pricing. Even if Winky is right that it is possible to tax the electricity used to charge vehicles, that is still a blunt instrument compared to road-pricing in the sense that it doesn't discriminate on the time and type of road used.  Without that ability, the extent to which you can influence drivers' behaviour is severely limited to things like total usage and emissions (of the vehicle used).  The prize from road-pricing is being able to influence, through cost per mile/km, when people choose to travel and what roads they use which potentially has significant benefits for reducing congestion, emissions in vulnerable areas and increased efficiency through people and road-carried freight getting from a to b more quickly. This last benefit could provide quite a boost to GDP.    

100% agree. Road pricing is an excellent tool for allocating what is a scarce resource in many cases.

MDS posted:

On a separate point, and prompted by Winky's advocacy of electric car-maker Tesla, I had a browse at their website recently. Two big shocks for me (a) the 0-60 times for these cars are blisteringly fast and (b) how expensive the cars are. I saw nothing under £80K.

Yes, the purchase price remains the only downside of electric vehicles for many users. But battery prices have been plummeting, and more affordable and practical cars are becoming widely available. The new Nissan Leaf is a very capable vehicle (155 mile range and priced from £22,000), as is the Chevrolet Bolt. Chevrolet can sell every one they make, and sales are exceeding forecasts. They are restricting some exports due to inability to meet demand in local markets.

Tesla's Model 3 promises much in the same market, but continuing delays to production ramp-up mean that it is hard to consider it an option for a prospective buyer just yet. Our reservation still shows "late 2018" - we think it will likely be a bit later than that, but who knows?

I guess like most things, large volumes of mass-production sees unit costs plummet making the product much more affordable to the masses. The early entrants are the ones that pay a heavy premium.

I hadn't quite appreciated the technical sophistication of the Tesla cars e.g. 4-wheel drive with each wheel having its own electric motor.  I think I'd made the lazy assumption that this was not much more than taking the conventional petrol/diesel engine + gearbox and replacing it with a electric motor with an array of batteries in the boot. I was wrong. I wish Tesla success.    

MDS posted:

I guess like most things, large volumes of mass-production sees unit costs plummet making the product much more affordable to the masses. The early entrants are the ones that pay a heavy premium.

I hadn't quite appreciated the technical sophistication of the Tesla cars e.g. 4-wheel drive with each wheel having its own electric motor.  I think I'd made the lazy assumption that this was not much more than taking the conventional petrol/diesel engine + gearbox and replacing it with a electric motor with an array of batteries in the boot. I was wrong. I wish Tesla success.    

 

The sales of EVs in China exceeds Europe and North America combined. The best-selling Chinese EV, the delightfully named "BAIC EC-Series" now sell 5 times as many as does Tesla of its Model S. It is a small, kinda-funny-looking X-ver with 220 miles of range that sells for the equivalent of US$22,000 (around GBP16,000). Economies of scale are now fully impacting the industry.

Yeah, Winky, as you imply, I wouldn't buy that car on looks 

winkyincanada posted:

MDS posted:

It will be road-pricing. Even if Winky is right that it is possible to tax the electricity used to charge vehicles, that is still a blunt instrument compared to road-pricing in the sense that it doesn't discriminate on the time and type of road used.  Without that ability, the extent to which you can influence drivers' behaviour is severely limited to things like total usage and emissions (of the vehicle used).  The prize from road-pricing is being able to influence, through cost per mile/km, when people choose to travel and what roads they use which potentially has significant benefits for reducing congestion, emissions in vulnerable areas and increased efficiency through people and road-carried freight getting from a to b more quickly. This last benefit could provide quite a boost to GDP.    

100% agree. Road pricing is an excellent tool for allocating what is a scarce resource in many cases.

Road pricing strikes me as the most likely future. Details might vary, 

But if the technology exists as outlined by winky, or something similar, gov might consider both road pricing and a car-electricity tax.

MDS posted:

On a separate point, and prompted by Winky's advocacy of electric car-maker Tesla, I had a browse at their website recently. Two big shocks for me (a) the 0-60 times for these cars are blisteringly fast and (b) how expensive the cars are. I saw nothing under £80K.

We have two at work. A Tesla S and a BMW 3i.. They both have blisteringly fast acceleration that will no doubt appeal to the “boy-racer” in this respect.

Our peri-track is a very fast racetrack. We know just how quick these cars are ! 

This is the sort of story that puts me right off:

https://www.solarpowerportal.c...Wk5qMV5-vUY.facebook

Without storing solar power, I'm holding back for many years yet. 

MDS posted:

Yeah, Winky, as you imply, I wouldn't buy that car on looks 

Try our BMW - with its wierded rear seat access doors. As well as pig-uggly !

You would almost certainly be trapped if involved in any sort of accident.

You can't open the rear doors unless the corresponding front door is opened first !

A bit like those cheap pickup trucks with a cab nominally for four people, but rediculously small for a normal person and with the rear door needing to be closed before the normal door can be closed !

this will be the future runabout in cities  with parking/charging ,no fuel cars allowed .my guess this is stage one

Tony Lockhart posted:

This is the sort of story that puts me right off:

 

https://www.solarpowerportal.c...Wk5qMV5-vUY.facebook

 

Without storing solar power, I'm holding back for many years yet. 

Not so fast. If you can feed-in to the grid, or simply offset your bought power by generating solar, then you don't need storage. You either use or sell the daytime power to the grid and buy your night-time charge power. The "storage" is essentially in the form of a reduction/delay of fossil fuel usage by the grid.

The re-purposing of EV batteries for static storage is also an emerging opportunity. The requirement for as-high-as-possible energy density doesn't really apply to static installations, so a nominal 70kwh battery that is now only really capable of 40kwh may be of little use in a car, but can provide many more years of service as a big house battery. The reason that this isn't much of a thing yet, is that the vast majority of batteries put into electric cars are still working fine in the cars, where they will last around 10 years.

Don Atkinson posted:

MDS posted:

Yeah, Winky, as you imply, I wouldn't buy that car on looks 

Try our BMW - with its wierded rear seat access doors. As well as pig-uggly !

You would almost certainly be trapped if involved in any sort of accident.

You can't open the rear doors unless the corresponding front door is opened first !

A bit like those cheap pickup trucks with a cab nominally for four people, but rediculously small for a normal person and with the rear door needing to be closed before the normal door can be closed !

I agree. BMW made a terrible choice by making the i3 such a stupid little ugly car. They really should just have electrified a conventional sedan or hatch.

Not so fast, Winky!

When we bought our house the solar panels were already installed, but not owned by the previous house owner. The solar installation company installed them for 'free', but as payment they take any solar we don't use. So, any excess is given away, as far as we are concerned.  

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

MDS posted:

Yeah, Winky, as you imply, I wouldn't buy that car on looks 

Try our BMW - with its wierded rear seat access doors. As well as pig-uggly !

You would almost certainly be trapped if involved in any sort of accident.

You can't open the rear doors unless the corresponding front door is opened first !

A bit like those cheap pickup trucks with a cab nominally for four people, but rediculously small for a normal person and with the rear door needing to be closed before the normal door can be closed !

I agree. BMW made a terrible choice by making the i3 such a stupid little ugly car. They really should just have electrified a conventional sedan or hatch.

BMW had to start from scratch. There's no spare space in any current car, and putting a sh*t load of batteries where the engine was would be disastrous.