Electric Cars - Saviours of our environment or just another fad?

Ouch!.  I just googled it. BMW iSore more like.

G

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

MDS posted:

Yeah, Winky, as you imply, I wouldn't buy that car on looks 

Try our BMW - with its wierded rear seat access doors. As well as pig-uggly !

You would almost certainly be trapped if involved in any sort of accident.

You can't open the rear doors unless the corresponding front door is opened first !

A bit like those cheap pickup trucks with a cab nominally for four people, but rediculously small for a normal person and with the rear door needing to be closed before the normal door can be closed !

I agree. BMW made a terrible choice by making the i3 such a stupid little ugly car. They really should just have electrified a conventional sedan or hatch.

Now a BMW i8, that looks the part 

The i8. Costs a fortune, and on a long journey does about 35mpg. No thank you.  

I agree that it is very expensive, Tony. And as a Mercedes-man I wouldn't swop for a BMW. But the i8 does look good. Quite an eye-catcher in my view.   

Tony Lockhart posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

MDS posted:

Yeah, Winky, as you imply, I wouldn't buy that car on looks 

Try our BMW - with its wierded rear seat access doors. As well as pig-uggly !

You would almost certainly be trapped if involved in any sort of accident.

You can't open the rear doors unless the corresponding front door is opened first !

A bit like those cheap pickup trucks with a cab nominally for four people, but rediculously small for a normal person and with the rear door needing to be closed before the normal door can be closed !

I agree. BMW made a terrible choice by making the i3 such a stupid little ugly car. They really should just have electrified a conventional sedan or hatch.

BMW had to start from scratch. There's no spare space in any current car, and putting a sh*t load of batteries where the engine was would be disastrous.   

You might be right. Perhaps the little SUV X1 could perhaps have been adapted, but OK. They still didn't need to make it so weird and ugly.

VW managed to make an electric Golf without changing the look too much. 35kwh of battery capacity.

MDS posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

MDS posted:

Yeah, Winky, as you imply, I wouldn't buy that car on looks 

Try our BMW - with its wierded rear seat access doors. As well as pig-uggly !

You would almost certainly be trapped if involved in any sort of accident.

You can't open the rear doors unless the corresponding front door is opened first !

A bit like those cheap pickup trucks with a cab nominally for four people, but rediculously small for a normal person and with the rear door needing to be closed before the normal door can be closed !

I agree. BMW made a terrible choice by making the i3 such a stupid little ugly car. They really should just have electrified a conventional sedan or hatch.

Now a BMW i8, that looks the part 

It isn't an electric car, though.

Tony Lockhart posted:

Not so fast, Winky!

 

When we bought our house the solar panels were already installed, but not owned by the previous house owner. The solar installation company installed them for 'free', but as payment they take any solar we don't use. So, any excess is given away, as far as we are concerned.  

OK. Depends how you think about it. The solar you do use is offsetting your bought electricity costs and that saving is available to contribute towards the electricity you use to charge your car. But in any case, you don't brew your own gasoline, do you? What's the difference between buying petrol/gas and buying electricity?

(As an aside, how would the contract change if you installed storage? That could potentially reduce the return to the installer to zero.)

Winky,

'Current' car is all bought, paid for, hasn't caused any expense, and does me just fine. With a new EV I'd lose more in one year than our car is worth, and I spend under £1k per annum on diesel, with an easy range of 650-700 miles in one tankful. 

I've been through the contract and can't find any mention about storage systems. Perhaps they weren't viable when the panels were fitted. Anyhow, see my earlier post today about battery deterioration costing more than the savings on electricity useage.

We really aren't there yet in Britain, unless you live in a large, busy town or have another car with an ICE.  

I have now had 'Misty' (Telsa Model S 75D) for three months and have been delighted with her although there are many niggles.

First, the performance (0-60MPH in 4S) and handling are awesome. It is a beautiful car to drive. The way the whole technology comes together is impressive with the Sat Nav able to pick up addresses from events in my calendar (via my iPhone), the (so far limited) auto pilot, the audio system (DAB/FM/AM plus Internet Radio, Spotify and USB FLAC) and remote management from an iPhone App.

In terms of range, although 300 miles is stated it is looking like only 150 miles (for short trips) on full charge at this time of the year. The power usage is much higher when the battery is cold. The range is much better when the battery is warm and this means more range in warmer times, on longer journeys (which warm up the battery) and starting after a charge (which warms up the battery). The best I've had equates to around 250 - 300 miles on a full charge. I usually charge at home on a dedicated circuit which charges at 30A giving me about 20 miles charge an hour. I also use the free Tesla Superchargers which can charge at 120KW. A couple of times I've used other charging networks. Power consumption is measured by watt hours per mile and mine varies between 250 and 450 depending upon driving conditions, degree of acceleration (irresistible but it does use more electricity), outside temperature, road conditions (more power in the wet because of lower grip) and wind resistance (you can see instant and short term energy consumption).

Although I love it and would buy another it is IMHO a disruptive technology still at the early adopter phase (I would expect widespread adoption beginning sometime in the next decade). Tesla are still learning how to be a car company and still need to iron out manufacturing processes, service and quality. I have had almost no problems with the car or the service but others have. The approach to charging (home, destination and journey) needs to be resolved. For example, there are at least 4 or 5 charging networks in the UK and, although they use the same connectors, multiple accounts are required. Driver assistance is coming along well but full self driving is many years away. The technology is driving a huge amount of change and improvements both in car software (over the air updates) and hardware.

The cost is high. I bought Misty on a 4 year PCP at 1.5% interest rate. my reckoning is that in 4 years time it will have depreciated significantly as new technology becomes better and cheaper. I ordered when Tesla had introduced some major upgrades and reduced prices - this will happen again and again. The deposit was about the same as the cost of a 272/250 .

Nice, honest report Peter.

A lot of similarities with the Tesla we have at work.

Fortunately, we also have a Landrover - and of course a fleet of aeroplanes !!

Tony Lockhart posted:

Winky,

'Current' car is all bought, paid for, hasn't caused any expense, and does me just fine. With a new EV I'd lose more in one year than our car is worth, and I spend under £1k per annum on diesel, with an easy range of 650-700 miles in one tankful. 

I've been through the contract and can't find any mention about storage systems. Perhaps they weren't viable when the panels were fitted. Anyhow, see my earlier post today about battery deterioration costing more than the savings on electricity useage.

We really aren't there yet in Britain, unless you live in a large, busy town or have another car with an ICE.  

I'm not arguing that you, or anyone should switch to electric.

As to your final point...

Where I live most people have at least 2 cars per household with 4 or 5 being relatively common (Annoyingly, they leave them parked all over the roads once their car-bedrooms and driveways are full). When people realise that we, as a family, struggle by with just one vehicle they raise their eyebrows. Anyway, my point is that the range limitation arguably doesn't apply to a second vehicle (nor to the first for 98% of most peoples' driving habits). People can choose their Escalade for the trip to Okanagan and leave the Model S at home. (They could drive to Okanagan in a Model S without any issues either - but that's not my point). Electric vehicles are already extremely common where I live, and part of the reason may be that that many are a second (or third, or fourth etc) vehicle. The market share of electric vehicles can still grow manifold, simply in the "second vehicle" space before range is an issue at all for these people.

6% fewer new cars sold in the U.K. last year. For most Brits, this isn't the time. Yes, the affluent areas will see a way of further tax avoidance, everyone else will struggle on for now, with what they have.  

Now I doubt whether other than winky, mogul and myself any others on the Forum know where the Okanagan is.

And last time I made the journey (Coldstream to Burrard Street) it was 442 km each way and I did the round trip, including a 3 to 4 hour stay in Vancouver, in a day. Leaving home at 07:00 and getting back at 21:00.

The two re-charging points in the Sutton Place Hotel car park (in Burrard Street) were occupied when I arrived.

Rather fortunately, we were in the petrol driven CRV.....................and i'm not entirely convinced I could have done this trip as efficiently (my time is valuable) in any of the EV mentioned above.

Oh ! and if I had to do that, or more likely Vernon to Canmore ,(about 470 km) in the winter, with winter tyres, heater, and the possibility of an unexpected long delay (think 24 hours at -20 deg C) en-route.....

......it'll be quite awhile before I consider an EV in Canada (or here for that matter)

What can I say? Am a complete evangelist for solar panels, but not necessarily vehicles. My evangelism is of course of the mercenary variety. I receive without any merit for it at all about £2,000 a year from the British government for my solar panels. I have to thank idiots like Cameron and Davey for this little tax free bonus to my pensions. I pay my taxes and if some clown wants to give me the opportunity to claw back some of my usurious payments then I will jump at it. As for electric cars etc, then the second it benefits me and it actually works then I'll have some of that. 

Don Atkinson posted:

Nice, honest report Peter.

A lot of similarities with the Tesla we have at work.

Fortunately, we also have a Landrover - and of course a fleet of aeroplanes !!

Thanks Don

Our other car is a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. It is certainly not time to dump the pump yet. I hope I never need to buy another ICE car but practical considerations must come first.

Tony Lockhart posted:

6% fewer new cars sold in the U.K. last year. For most Brits, this isn't the time. Yes, the affluent areas will see a way of further tax avoidance, everyone else will struggle on for now, with what they have.  

Tony

The tax aspects are only a small part of it and not at all material. At the moment Tesla is aiming at early adopters and those prepared to pay for high performance vehicles. They are also moving in on those who would normally buy an XJ (my old car), a 7 Series, an S Class or an A8. Those prepared to pay for top of the range vehicles are helping development of the next generations which will be aimed at the mass market (the Model X and Y are the first steps of this).

Daughter No 3 lives in Wimbledon, in a terraced house without a garage or direct, external access to the rear. It quite a common arrangement and typical of many houses in many of our cities.

They have a car which lives in their residential road, which is wide enough for footpaths, parking and two-way traffic. They travel to/from work in Waterloo mainly by cycling along the Thames towpath and through the parks. They use their car at weekends to gain easy, flexible,rapid access to the countryside. The Resident's Parking Permit doesn't allocate a spot directly outside their home. They take whatever is available, usually within about 50m of their house.

Running a 240V flexible cable (even a long Naim Power-lIne) from their house, across the footpath then anything from 10 to 50m along the street to their car, in order to re-charge it, seems somewhat impractical to me. Daughter No 3 is not alone. I guess there must be several million UK bods who could be in a similar situation.

I'm not sure what long-term, permanent arrangement might be put in place, nor how the capital cost of such infrastructure would be funded or maintained etc.

Ideas anybody ??

Don Atkinson posted:

Now I doubt whether other than winky, mogul and myself any others on the Forum know where the Okanagan is.

And last time I made the journey (Coldstream to Burrard Street) it was 442 km each way and I did the round trip, including a 3 to 4 hour stay in Vancouver, in a day. Leaving home at 07:00 and getting back at 21:00.

The two re-charging points in the Sutton Place Hotel car park (in Burrard Street) were occupied when I arrived.

Rather fortunately, we were in the petrol driven CRV.....................and i'm not entirely convinced I could have done this trip as efficiently (my time is valuable) in any of the EV mentioned above.

To be fair Don, you were likely the only person to do that round trip that day. Nearly 900km in a day is an extraordinary amount of driving for most people, and something they'd only do very rarely. Do you ever add up the time you send filling your petrol-powered cars?

Don Atkinson posted:

Daughter No 3 lives in Wimbledon, in a terraced house without a garage or direct, external access to the rear. It quite a common arrangement and typical of many houses in many of our cities.

They have a car which lives in their residential road, which is wide enough for footpaths, parking and two-way traffic. They travel to/from work in Waterloo mainly by cycling along the Thames towpath and through the parks. They use their car at weekends to gain easy, flexible,rapid access to the countryside. The Resident's Parking Permit doesn't allocate a spot directly outside their home. They take whatever is available, usually within about 50m of their house.

Running a 240V flexible cable (even a long Naim Power-lIne) from their house, across the footpath then anything from 10 to 50m along the street to their car, in order to re-charge it, seems somewhat impractical to me. Daughter No 3 is not alone. I guess there must be several million UK bods who could be in a similar situation.

I'm not sure what long-term, permanent arrangement might be put in place, nor how the capital cost of such infrastructure would be funded or maintained etc.

Ideas anybody ??

 

Parking meter-style curbside chargers are not unknown, but an eyesore to be sure (but nowhere near as ugly as the cars themselves - which have completely destroyed the suburban streetscape throughout much of the UK). Rather than tie up her capital, and the street, with her lightly-used vehicle, your daughter might even be able to make do with a shared vehicle, as is becoming common here in downtown Vancouver.

Many, many people do have people somewhere to store and charge their cars, though. Even more don't really need the capacity to regularly drive 900km in a day. (Although they easily could if they wanted to, along the most popular routes in North America, using the rapidly expanding supercharger network). There is still much room for a very large uptake of electric vehicles without having to solve yours, or your daughters, objections.

PeterJ posted:

Tony Lockhart posted:

6% fewer new cars sold in the U.K. last year. For most Brits, this isn't the time. Yes, the affluent areas will see a way of further tax avoidance, everyone else will struggle on for now, with what they have.  

Tony

The tax aspects are only a small part of it and not at all material. At the moment Tesla is aiming at early adopters and those prepared to pay for high performance vehicles. They are also moving in on those who would normally buy an XJ (my old car), a 7 Series, an S Class or an A8. Those prepared to pay for top of the range vehicles are helping development of the next generations which will be aimed at the mass market (the Model X and Y are the first steps of this).

In North America, the Tesla Model S outsells A8s, S-class and 7-series combined, and has done for a couple of years. I believe that even in Germany, the Model S also outsells these, individually, at least.

It's also wrong to focus on Teslas. The smaller, less expensive electric vehicles have suddenly become very capable indeed. They're not all stupid noddy cars like the BMW i3.

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Daughter No 3 lives in Wimbledon, in a terraced house without a garage or direct, external access to the rear. It quite a common arrangement and typical of many houses in many of our cities.

They have a car which lives in their residential road, which is wide enough for footpaths, parking and two-way traffic. They travel to/from work in Waterloo mainly by cycling along the Thames towpath and through the parks. They use their car at weekends to gain easy, flexible,rapid access to the countryside. The Resident's Parking Permit doesn't allocate a spot directly outside their home. They take whatever is available, usually within about 50m of their house.

Running a 240V flexible cable (even a long Naim Power-lIne) from their house, across the footpath then anything from 10 to 50m along the street to their car, in order to re-charge it, seems somewhat impractical to me. Daughter No 3 is not alone. I guess there must be several million UK bods who could be in a similar situation.

I'm not sure what long-term, permanent arrangement might be put in place, nor how the capital cost of such infrastructure would be funded or maintained etc.

Ideas anybody ??

 

Parking meter-style curbside chargers are not unknown, but an eyesore to be sure (but nowhere near as ugly as the cars themselves - which have completely destroyed the suburban streetscape throughout much of the UK). Rather than tie up her capital, and the street, with her lightly-used vehicle, your daughter might even be able to make do with a shared vehicle, as is becoming common here in downtown Vancouver.

Many, many people do have people somewhere to store and charge their cars, though. Even more don't really need the capacity to regularly drive 900km in a day. (Although they easily could if they wanted to, along the most popular routes in North America, using the rapidly expanding supercharger network). There is still much room for a very large uptake of electric vehicles without having to solve yours, or your daughters, objections.

Oh! She doesn't have any objections to EVs and neither do I.

I just quoted her situation to illustrate a widespread situation that will likely prevent many people from home-charging. The parking-meter style curbside chargers probably won't be linked to a specific property and will attract the usual supplier's premium to re-charge. It's far from "my" problem or my daughter's "problem" -we don't run EVs (remember ?)

At work we re-charge from the "domestic" 240V system for next-to-nothing. This also provides the best way to fully charge the batteries.  We also have four "commercial" re-charging points on the airfield, installed and operated by a commercial vending outfit (we collect a fee for providing the premises). The cost of this re-charge is £1 for connection plus cost of energy supplied, running at about £7 to re-charge the BMW.

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Daughter No 3 lives in Wimbledon, in a terraced house without a garage or direct, external access to the rear. It quite a common arrangement and typical of many houses in many of our cities.

They have a car which lives in their residential road, which is wide enough for footpaths, parking and two-way traffic. They travel to/from work in Waterloo mainly by cycling along the Thames towpath and through the parks. They use their car at weekends to gain easy, flexible,rapid access to the countryside. The Resident's Parking Permit doesn't allocate a spot directly outside their home. They take whatever is available, usually within about 50m of their house.

Running a 240V flexible cable (even a long Naim Power-lIne) from their house, across the footpath then anything from 10 to 50m along the street to their car, in order to re-charge it, seems somewhat impractical to me. Daughter No 3 is not alone. I guess there must be several million UK bods who could be in a similar situation.

I'm not sure what long-term, permanent arrangement might be put in place, nor how the capital cost of such infrastructure would be funded or maintained etc.

Ideas anybody ??

 

Parking meter-style curbside chargers are not unknown, but an eyesore to be sure (but nowhere near as ugly as the cars themselves - which have completely destroyed the suburban streetscape throughout much of the UK). Rather than tie up her capital, and the street, with her lightly-used vehicle, your daughter might even be able to make do with a shared vehicle, as is becoming common here in downtown Vancouver.

Many, many people do have people somewhere to store and charge their cars, though. Even more don't really need the capacity to regularly drive 900km in a day. (Although they easily could if they wanted to, along the most popular routes in North America, using the rapidly expanding supercharger network). There is still much room for a very large uptake of electric vehicles without having to solve yours, or your daughters, objections.

It's a 20 year old VW Golf. Used to be her sister's. They've both looked after their cars, it's in beautiful condition. Tied-up capital however, must be all of £500. Probably less. You overlooked the "easy, flexible, rapid access to the countryside." element.

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Daughter No 3 lives in Wimbledon, in a terraced house without a garage or direct, external access to the rear. It quite a common arrangement and typical of many houses in many of our cities.

They have a car which lives in their residential road, which is wide enough for footpaths, parking and two-way traffic. They travel to/from work in Waterloo mainly by cycling along the Thames towpath and through the parks. They use their car at weekends to gain easy, flexible,rapid access to the countryside. The Resident's Parking Permit doesn't allocate a spot directly outside their home. They take whatever is available, usually within about 50m of their house.

Running a 240V flexible cable (even a long Naim Power-lIne) from their house, across the footpath then anything from 10 to 50m along the street to their car, in order to re-charge it, seems somewhat impractical to me. Daughter No 3 is not alone. I guess there must be several million UK bods who could be in a similar situation.

I'm not sure what long-term, permanent arrangement might be put in place, nor how the capital cost of such infrastructure would be funded or maintained etc.

Ideas anybody ??

 

Parking meter-style curbside chargers are not unknown, but an eyesore to be sure (but nowhere near as ugly as the cars themselves - which have completely destroyed the suburban streetscape throughout much of the UK). Rather than tie up her capital, and the street, with her lightly-used vehicle, your daughter might even be able to make do with a shared vehicle, as is becoming common here in downtown Vancouver.

Many, many people do have people somewhere to store and charge their cars, though. Even more don't really need the capacity to regularly drive 900km in a day. (Although they easily could if they wanted to, along the most popular routes in North America, using the rapidly expanding supercharger network). There is still much room for a very large uptake of electric vehicles without having to solve yours, or your daughters, objections.

It's a 20 year old VW Golf. Used to be her sister's. They've both looked after their cars, it's in beautiful condition. Tied-up capital however, must be all of £500. Probably less. You overlooked the "easy, flexible, rapid access to the countryside." element.

You mean THIS rapid easy access? To be fair, it's not a problem that electric cars solve.

Why couldn't she take a share-vehicle into the countryside?

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Daughter No 3 lives in Wimbledon, in a terraced house without a garage or direct, external access to the rear. It quite a common arrangement and typical of many houses in many of our cities.

They have a car which lives in their residential road, which is wide enough for footpaths, parking and two-way traffic. They travel to/from work in Waterloo mainly by cycling along the Thames towpath and through the parks. They use their car at weekends to gain easy, flexible,rapid access to the countryside. The Resident's Parking Permit doesn't allocate a spot directly outside their home. They take whatever is available, usually within about 50m of their house.

Running a 240V flexible cable (even a long Naim Power-lIne) from their house, across the footpath then anything from 10 to 50m along the street to their car, in order to re-charge it, seems somewhat impractical to me. Daughter No 3 is not alone. I guess there must be several million UK bods who could be in a similar situation.

I'm not sure what long-term, permanent arrangement might be put in place, nor how the capital cost of such infrastructure would be funded or maintained etc.

Ideas anybody ??

 

Parking meter-style curbside chargers are not unknown, but an eyesore to be sure (but nowhere near as ugly as the cars themselves - which have completely destroyed the suburban streetscape throughout much of the UK). Rather than tie up her capital, and the street, with her lightly-used vehicle, your daughter might even be able to make do with a shared vehicle, as is becoming common here in downtown Vancouver.

Many, many people do have people somewhere to store and charge their cars, though. Even more don't really need the capacity to regularly drive 900km in a day. (Although they easily could if they wanted to, along the most popular routes in North America, using the rapidly expanding supercharger network). There is still much room for a very large uptake of electric vehicles without having to solve yours, or your daughters, objections.

Oh! She doesn't have any objections to EVs and neither do I.

I just quoted her situation to illustrate a widespread situation that will likely prevent many people from home-charging. The parking-meter style curbside chargers probably won't be linked to a specific property and will attract the usual supplier's premium to re-charge. It's far from "my" problem or my daughter's "problem" -we don't run EVs (remember ?)

At work we re-charge from the "domestic" 240V system for next-to-nothing. This also provides the best way to fully charge the batteries.  We also have four "commercial" re-charging points on the airfield, installed and operated by a commercial vending outfit (we collect a fee for providing the premises). The cost of this re-charge is £1 for connection plus cost of energy supplied, running at about £7 to re-charge the BMW.

OK, they're neither yours, nor you daughter's problems nor objections. I'm just pointing out that the "issues" (sorry of that's also the wrong word) you have put forward, are easily overcome by anyone wanting all the benefits of an electric vehicle.