Electric Cars - Saviours of our environment or just another fad?

Apart from the (controversial ?) Peace River Hydro scheme what is Canada's proposal to increase its electricity demand for electric cars, trucks, trains and buses ?

I have seen the wind turbines in SW Alberta (environmental rape IMHO) and I did see a few new wind turbines someplace this past couple of weeks, but I can't recall where (again environmental rape IMHO), but as you say, we also need 24/7 power generation to support any wind or solar power generation.

ISTR that Alberta was building new coal-fired ( or possibly gas-fired) power stations the past few years but I'm not sure this has happened or not ?

So is it a case of electric v home air-conditioning/heating v industry or is there a long term plan in place to generate more carbon-free energy ?

Don Atkinson posted:

Apart from the (controversial ?) Peace River Hydro scheme what is Canada's proposal to increase its electricity demand for electric cars, trucks, trains and buses ?

The projected uptake of electric cars is so slow that it is not an immediate issue as far as I know. Per-capita energy usage is dropping due to increased efficiency. Some argue that Site C hydro is actually surplus to forecast requirements. The shift from refining oil for cars to burning it for electricity is also possible and would happen over time. That's not currently an issue for BC, nor is it for the foreseeable future.

I have a Tesla Model S on order and delivery is scheduled for next month.

I'd always considered them too expensive but there was a significant price drop (and feature upgrade) recently. Also, the UK Supercharger network is expanding considerably (my deal includes unlimited free use of Superchargers). The vehicle claims to do 4 miles per KWH and home charging is 7.5KW leading to a cost of around £0.04 a mile. Superchargers are claimed to charge 180 miles in 30 minutes.

I've ordered a 75D which does 0 - 60MPH in 4.2 seconds and has a 300 mile range.

I will report back on real life experience of the claims.

Don Atkinson posted:

I have seen the wind turbines in SW Alberta (environmental rape IMHO) and I did see a few new wind turbines someplace this past couple of weeks, but I can't recall where (again environmental rape IMHO), but as you say, we also need 24/7 power generation to support any wind or solar power generation.

ISTR that Alberta was building new coal-fired ( or possibly gas-fired) power stations the past few years but I'm not sure this has happened or not ?

So is it a case of electric v home air-conditioning/heating v industry or is there a long term plan in place to generate more carbon-free energy ?

I like wind turbines. To me, they evoke hope for the future. I'd rather look at them than at freeways, strip malls, sprawling housing estates full of mcmansions, oil refineries, and coal mines.

Storage for renewables is technically possible. It is just that the current costs of storage mean that over-capitalising in the form of often redundant fossil fuel plants can actually be a more economically efficient solution at the moment than providing additional renewables+storage. Oh, and they already exist.

It is starting to become an issue that grids come under too much pressure from surplus solar power during sunny periods in California. For now, this power is often (sometimes?) sold (sometimes at a negative price i.e. other states are paid to take it) to the rest of the country, rather than turn off/down other California sources. You can't actually turn off solar, anymore than you can turn off the sun, and the fuel is free.

The issue why fossil fuel plants continue to generate when there is surplus power is two-fold: 1) Long-term contracts that guarantee utilities access to a market. You'd have to pay them to not generate. 2) Technology in fossil fuel plants that was not designed to run up and down quickly. As we switch to gas turbines rather than coal plants, this is actually pretty easy to solve. They CAN be designed to be responsive, it is just that historically, they didn't have to be.

Another form of storage for renewables that is extensively used is hydro. Water not released (because solar or wind power meant it wasn't immediately needed) is available for future generation. It is also a practice to pump water back up for future use, thus "storing" energy. 

Tesla has contracted with the South Australian government to build the world's largest Li-ion battery farm for storage of their renewable energy. They had politically troublesome blackouts last year, in part caused by a rapid surge in renewables as a % of their base-load. To scale this is Li-ion storage currently very expensive, but prices for cells are dropping fast.

The issue of storage is lessened by the fact that demand tends to match availability. It is sunnier and windier during the day when people tend to use power. The best correlation is in places like the southern US where a lot of the peak electricity demand is to run A/C which coincides with the sunniest weather. A shortage of nighttime and winter power leads to price increases and incentivises people to both be more efficient, and to switch to things like burning gas for heating (much more efficient than burning the same gas for electricity then having electric heating). People might even choose to live in smaller dwellings (gasp).

Looking at the pictures of children as young as four hand mining Cobalt in The Congo for use in electric cars it could be argued that the human cost is too much.

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I have seen the wind turbines in SW Alberta (environmental rape IMHO) and I did see a few new wind turbines someplace this past couple of weeks, but I can't recall where (again environmental rape IMHO), but as you say, we also need 24/7 power generation to support any wind or solar power generation.

ISTR that Alberta was building new coal-fired ( or possibly gas-fired) power stations the past few years but I'm not sure this has happened or not ?

So is it a case of electric v home air-conditioning/heating v industry or is there a long term plan in place to generate more carbon-free energy ?

I like wind turbines. To me, they evoke hope for the future. I'd rather look at them than at freeways, strip malls, sprawling housing estates full of mcmansions, oil refineries, and coal mines.

 

The wind farms being built out in the channel off the coast near Brighton look horrendous and have ruined that beautiful view forever.

Bob the Builder posted:

Looking at the pictures of children as young as four hand mining Cobalt in The Congo for use in electric cars it could be argued that the human cost is too much.

Looking at the widespread environmental damage being caused by the fossil fuel industry, and the devastation on the roads, it could be argued that human cost of motoring is far too much.

Artisanal hand mining of cobalt and other minerals is world-wide issue. To address the issue requires selflessness on our part, and on the part of the politicians we elect. Eschewing electric cars won't solve these issues.

Bob the Builder posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

I have seen the wind turbines in SW Alberta (environmental rape IMHO) and I did see a few new wind turbines someplace this past couple of weeks, but I can't recall where (again environmental rape IMHO), but as you say, we also need 24/7 power generation to support any wind or solar power generation.

ISTR that Alberta was building new coal-fired ( or possibly gas-fired) power stations the past few years but I'm not sure this has happened or not ?

So is it a case of electric v home air-conditioning/heating v industry or is there a long term plan in place to generate more carbon-free energy ?

I like wind turbines. To me, they evoke hope for the future. I'd rather look at them than at freeways, strip malls, sprawling housing estates full of mcmansions, oil refineries, and coal mines.

 

The wind farms being built out in the channel off the coast near Brighton look horrendous and have ruined that beautiful view forever.

Not forever at all. At some point, a better technology will come along and they will be dismantled. Or they will fall into disrepair and collapse into the sea with no human intervention in the long run. The planet will recover from out blight, once we're all gone. Shortsighted environmental policies and greed will hasten this inevitable outcome.

 

To address the issue requires selflessness on our part, and on the part of the politicians we elect.

Good luck with that!

 

Not forever at all. At some point, a better technology will come along and they will be dismantled. Or they will fall into disrepair and collapse into the sea with no human intervention in the long run. The planet will recover from out blight, once we're all gone. Shortsighted environmental policies and greed will hasten this inevitable outcome.

...and on that cheery note I'm off down the pub .

Well, I think we have reached the point that myself and George aka Fredrick aka Fiske etc came to circa 10 years ago.........

.......there are just too many of us on the planet for anything to be sustainable. Electric cars, wind-turbines.....it's about the same as pissing in the wind !

Oh! And please don't suggest that the recent change in leadership in the country south of Canada is going to solve the global overpopulation problem one way or another............

Don Atkinson posted:

Well, I think we have reached the point that myself and George aka Fredrick aka Fiske etc came to circa 10 years ago.........

.......there are just too many of us on the planet for anything to be sustainable. Electric cars, wind-turbines.....it's about the same as pissing in the wind !

I think you and George may be around 200 years too late for the Malthusian party, Don!  ;-)

Oh, I don't think we were following in the footsteps of Malthus, who was concerned mainly with individual poverty.

But I do see your point Chris !

Anyway, I'm an optimist at heart, nuclear fusion is just around the corner, together with GM crops. Plus our carefree offspring, along with their I-phones are just soooo inventive these days and really focused on sustainability that we have nothing to worry about...........

...I'm with Mr  Micawber.........something will turn up !

Germany set a record for a couple of days in April with 64% of total electricity coming from renewables. Meanwhile in Australia the bat-$hi+ crazy national party just voted to end all subsidies for renewable energy. Screw the future, eh? I want more stuff NOW! Fortunately with the true cost of renewable energy now undercutting most other sources in many jurisdictions, the investment will continue.

The UK and France "plan to ban" new petrol and diesel cars by 2040 and China has announced it is planning to also ban these types but has yet to fix a deadline. Volvo is only producing hybrids as of now.

Looks like we should start investing in nuclear power stations.

Don Atkinson posted:

The UK and France "plan to ban" new petrol and diesel cars by 2040 and China has announced it is planning to also ban these types but has yet to fix a deadline. Volvo is only producing hybrids as of now.

Looks like we should start investing in nuclear power stations.

 

Not so fast. At least here in Canada. We currently have about 130GW of installed generating capacity. If ALL road vehicles were suddenly electric it would add a maximum of about 20GW. The transition over the forecast time-frame seems very manageable to me. Having said that, I am all for nuclear growing as quickly as possible to replace first coal, then all fossil fuel plants.

At 15,500kwh per person, Canada has the dubious distinction of being one of the most profligate users of energy in the world. Efficiency measures have a big base to start from.

Don Atkinson posted:

The UK and France "plan to ban" new petrol and diesel cars by 2040 and China has announced it is planning to also ban these types but has yet to fix a deadline. Volvo is only producing hybrids as of now.

Looks like we should start investing in nuclear power stations.

 

 

And bicycles...

What sort of engines are being developed by RR, P&W, GE etc for attachment to Boeing, Airbus, etc

Don Atkinson posted:

What sort of engines are being developed by RR, P&W, GE etc for attachment to Boeing, Airbus, etc

 

Don Atkinson posted:

What sort of engines are being developed by RR, P&W, GE etc for attachment to Boeing, Airbus, etc

 

It's not going to be electric any time soon. Mass is prohibitively expensive in aviation. The energy density of kerosene if far better than even the best batteries.

What ever happened to fuel cell cars? About 15 years ago there was a lot of talk about this technology ultimately replacing internal combustion engines.

Kevin Richardson posted:

What ever happened to fuel cell cars? About 15 years ago there was a lot of talk about this technology ultimately replacing internal combustion engines.

They have their proponents. The "fuel cell" isn't the engine but an energy conversion step. The fuel, hydrogen, is combined with oxygen in the fuel cell to produce electricity. This drives electric motors just like a battery-powered vehicle. Problem is that the there is virtually no infrastructure for refuelling, and the production the hydrogen is costly and GHG intensive. Transportation and storage also presents significant risk. The only advantage over battery cars is quick refuelling (and slightly higher range for the time being). But my money is on battery swapping as a means to achieve "fast refuelling". Currently there is little demand for this as battery vehicle range is now adequate for 95% of daily driving needs (and increasing).

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news...y-senior-merkel-aide

I remain baffled by the inability of the mainstream makers (and Don) to see the game-changer that electric vehicles represents.

From the subsequent posts it seems it's not just me (and the mainstream makers) who are baffling you, winky.

Now my plan to stay over in Chilliwack was changed. So today I wound up leaving Vernon at 07:00 and driving to Vancouver 450 km away for my 12:00 meeting. No problem in the CRV. A quick 15 min stop at Hope to stretch the legs and top-up the fuel to make sure I avoid the pricey stuff in Vancouver. It would need about 50 to 100 recharge points to service the cars I saw, with people spending 45 mins rather than 15. Park in the Sutton Place underground and note there are TWO electric recharge points. If they weren't occupied I guess I could have recharged an electric vehicle, but they were occupied when I arrived. But TWO chargers.......they need more like 102.......  and a 500 km range for a 450 km journey is pushing your luck IMHO.

Meeting over and on my way out of town by 14:30 with another 15 min stop at Hope and back in Vernon in time for supper by 19:30.

Tomorrow, about 600 km to Canmore.

Now I don't do journeys like these too often. So, do I hire  a petrol vehicle for these "special" occasions or do I need two cars, one for the local journeys and the other in reserve for the big ones.

Nah, I'll stick with the CRV for the time being.

Will BC Hydro be able to cope if we all changed to all-electric cars ? Or would they need to import French/Chinese nuclear stations ?

 

Forget the CRV - get a big truck! F350 ... Harley version ��