Electric Cars - Saviours of our environment or just another fad?

Don Atkinson posted:

Take your foot off the accelerator and the energy-recovery system feels as if you've applied the normal brakes on a normal car. But having a conventional braking system is still useful......

.....it could help you stop at the pedestrian crossing for the odd cyclist carrying his helmet and shoes

Why is he carrying his helmet and shoes?...

He had to jump off his bike because of the BMW i3...  and then it ran over his bike!

Don Atkinson posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Many of the cyclists I have seen recently are wearing ear-phones and presumably listening to their OCE (On Cycle Entertainment) system.

Some car drivers too, Don. You don't have the moral high ground all to yourself   ;-)

C.

Oh Chris !     if you eliminate ALL other car drivers, I probably do

Haha!

It's going to be sunny tomorrow, why not a bike ride?  I'd join you if I wasn't working.

Christopher_M posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Many of the cyclists I have seen recently are wearing ear-phones and presumably listening to their OCE (On Cycle Entertainment) system.

Some car drivers too, Don. You don't have the moral high ground all to yourself   ;-)

C.

Oh Chris !     if you eliminate ALL other car drivers, I probably do

Haha!

It's going to be sunny tomorrow, why not a bike ride?  I'd join you if I wasn't working.

Glad hear that you are working Chris. Good on you !

I also work weekends. So it’s hiking Tuesdays and Wednesdays

Huge posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Take your foot off the accelerator and the energy-recovery system feels as if you've applied the normal brakes on a normal car. But having a conventional braking system is still useful......

.....it could help you stop at the pedestrian crossing for the odd cyclist carrying his helmet and shoes

Why is he carrying his helmet and shoes?...

He had to jump off his bike because of the BMW i3...  and then it ran over his bike!

Ah ! Winky knows..........

Fad. Battery is the issue and charging points (and type of charging)

Battery - the chemical composition overtime degrades, in this case your range. Say 10 years on your 300 range BEV will maybe do 200 or less.

Charging points - Maybe an issue maybe not as range for some is not a major issue.

Type of charging - back to battery, trickle is best but 4 hrs for most, fast charge leads to battery degradation. I recall Samsung with my S8 boldly claiming after 1 year the battery will have 80% charge of its charge !!!!!!!!! quickly to add the S7 was worse than that.

So scenario you internal combustion engine can keep going in some cases for a 100,000 miles or more and resale gives a return.

A BEV well after 10 years allot has changed and your effective range is now half or less, so your car is junk as you cant replace or you would want the latest which would probably not package.

Whatever way you consider you need to factory the whole life cycle, MIT peeps recently said A Tesla total life cycle is worse than a small engine petrol.

Personally i think Toyota with hybrids have the right idea, 30 years on and they have 20+% mix compared to 1% or less for most OEM, bottom line their business is profitable and they have one car (i.e. Prius) that the EV or non EV elements package in the same space. 

Went to an interesting course recently good insight, but it was clear there are so many flavours of BEV/HEV and marketing making claims versus a somewhat fictious baseline.

Obsydian posted:

 

So scenario you internal combustion engine can keep going in some cases for a 100,000 miles or more and resale gives a return.

 

 

What world do you live in where a 10 year-old car with 100,000 miles on it would sell for anything but a fraction of its new price? More 80% of the price is gone in 10 years. e.g. a half-decent 2007 BMW 3-series sells for about $8500 Canadian. A new one is $55-$60K without options or taxes.

winkyincanada posted:

Obsydian posted:

 

So scenario you internal combustion engine can keep going in some cases for a 100,000 miles or more and resale gives a return.

 

 

What world do you live in where a 10 year-old car with 100,000 miles on it would sell for anything but a fraction of its new price? More 80% of the price is gone in 10 years. e.g. a half-decent 2007 BMW 3-series sells for about $8500 Canadian. A new one is $55-$60K without options or taxes.

In the UK yes you take a huge loss soon as you drive out of the showroom, but the car can if you so wish keep going if maintained, yes the residual value will be 30-40% but you still have a car you can drive and use.

My point was once your dedicated battery which is now 10 yrs old only holds 50% or less charge and range, then what ...

Good quality fossil fuel cars are good for easily in excess of 200,000 miles if properly maintained, which is great because as Winky points out they are very cheap at mileages approaching 100k - so I buy mine at 70k+ but young, paying the mileage knocking the price to maybe a third or less of new, and then keep for another 10 years or more until they start to give problems, giving low cost of ownership.

It will be nice when decent electric cars get to a similar level of long term usability, because then the less well-heeled or frugal among us will be/feel able to buy them. In the meantime the likes of Tesla sound wonderful, but require a major lottery win to consider!

For the past 40 years I have run 4 Mercedes E Class cars plus an S Class and a C Class. They had all done well over 300,000 miles by the time I have sold them. I sold the last of the E Class last week when it was over 28 years old and still going strong !

I very much doubt if any current electric car will match these Mercs  in terms of whole life cost and reliability.

The next one will be another E Class estate burning diesel.

blimey - that's seriously impressive ! 28 years old !!!!

My BMW is 8 years old with 236K miles on it. so hoping to match your records - (and buy more hi-fi with the money not spent on buying a new car )

Obsydian posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Obsydian posted:

 

So scenario you internal combustion engine can keep going in some cases for a 100,000 miles or more and resale gives a return.

 

 

What world do you live in where a 10 year-old car with 100,000 miles on it would sell for anything but a fraction of its new price? More 80% of the price is gone in 10 years. e.g. a half-decent 2007 BMW 3-series sells for about $8500 Canadian. A new one is $55-$60K without options or taxes.

In the UK yes you take a huge loss soon as you drive out of the showroom, but the car can if you so wish keep going if maintained, yes the residual value will be 30-40% but you still have a car you can drive and use.

My point was once your dedicated battery which is now 10 yrs old only holds 50% or less charge and range, then what ...

Re-cycle it or re-purpose it (to a static duty where the energy density is less critical) it and put in a new one. Battery costs are plummeting. In 10 years it is expected that they will only cost 20% to 40% of what they cost now. Tesla batteries are warranted for 10 years (none are that old yet). The expectation is that at the end of that 10 years, they will hold around 70-80% of original charge. The motors (and very small and simple transmissions) in an e-car will last much longer, and with much less maintenance than a petrol or diesel engine.

Don Atkinson posted:

For the past 40 years I have run 4 Mercedes E Class cars plus an S Class and a C Class. They had all done well over 300,000 miles by the time I have sold them. I sold the last of the E Class last week when it was over 28 years old and still going strong !

I very much doubt if any current electric car will match these Mercs  in terms of whole life cost and reliability.

The next one will be another E Class estate burning diesel.

Well, you are very fortunate. I had the misfortune of buying an E320 round about 1999 ('S' Registration). After about 6 months I noticed rust around the boot button. After much discussion with the dealer they resprayed the whole of the rear of the car, necessitated by colour blending. Over the next few years it rusted like a good 'un  resulting in at least one wing replacement. This was part of a batch of Mercs that seriously embarrassed the company at that time resulting in them having to change their manufacturing processes and extend rust warranties. Didn't help me, as even the roof lining had damp patches. I exchanged it in 2010 (I got the princely sum of £1,000) for a 325D BMW touring which is still running rust and trouble free to this day. I was going to exchange it for a new Macan Turbo, but I got bored waiting and canceled the order. Decided to keep the BMW and get a Cayman as a second car (I had been a one car owner up until then). 

Resurrection posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

For the past 40 years I have run 4 Mercedes E Class cars plus an S Class and a C Class. They had all done well over 300,000 miles by the time I have sold them. I sold the last of the E Class last week when it was over 28 years old and still going strong !

I very much doubt if any current electric car will match these Mercs  in terms of whole life cost and reliability.

The next one will be another E Class estate burning diesel.

Well, you are very fortunate. I had the misfortune of buying an E320 round about 1999 ('S' Registration). After about 6 months I noticed rust around the boot button. After much discussion with the dealer they resprayed the whole of the rear of the car, necessitated by colour blending. Over the next few years it rusted like a good 'un  resulting in at least one wing replacement. This was part of a batch of Mercs that seriously embarrassed the company at that time resulting in them having to change their manufacturing processes and extend rust warranties. Didn't help me, as even the roof lining had damp patches. I exchanged it in 2010 (I got the princely sum of £1,000) for a 325D BMW touring which is still running rust and trouble free to this day. I was going to exchange it for a new Macan Turbo, but I got bored waiting and canceled the order. Decided to keep the BMW and get a Cayman as a second car (I had been a one car owner up until then). 

Yes, Mercedes went through a bad period after they were merged/absorbed/taken-over by some American car giant.

Our C Class, which we still have, is from that era. It is 2001, so about 16 years old with 200k on the clock. It runs beautifully and delivers well over 60mpg, often more than 70mpg. But it is rusting around the wheel arches. It's not too noticeable at present, but for what the car is currently worth (not a lot) it will only make sense to have it restored if I keep it for another 3 or 4 years. Undecided at present.

All the E Classes we have had, were rust free when we sold them, usually when they were about 15 years old, the last being an exception at >28 years, which we had for about 25 years.

Electric cars, my arse. I don't even like electric shavers.

The E320 cited by Resurrection was one of the W210 series, which was known for rusty panels (wings and boot lid especially). The metal pressings were the problem and even though Mercedes replaced many, as fault was in the panels those replacements often suffered too.  A number of other Mercedes models also suffered problems in that era, e.g. C-class (W202) and first generation SLK, though seemingly not as bad.  I had a W210 at the time and while it was ok with me, a friend who bought it then encountered the problem.  The replacement E-class, W211, was trouble free, as was the next one (W212).  Thankfully Mercedes learnt from its problems in that time, and many Mercs designed from before that era are still going strong. For example, I have a 1998 SL (R129) which doesn't have a trace of rust, though it does lead a pampered life.   

Don Atkinson posted:

For the past 40 years I have run 4 Mercedes E Class cars plus an S Class and a C Class. They had all done well over 300,000 miles by the time I have sold them. I sold the last of the E Class last week when it was over 28 years old and still going strong !

I very much doubt if any current electric car will match these Mercs  in terms of whole life cost and reliability.

The next one will be another E Class estate burning diesel.

Enjoy your farty, rough, slow car.

"Waddya mean I can't charge it at home? I have to stop during my driving to fuel it? Every time? That's pretty inconvenient. I have to carry around a tank of flammable liquid? What's that pipe at the back? What's that gas coming out of it? Is it poisonous? Wow, it's slow. What's that noise?"

Three of mine were W123 series and the estate we have just sold was a 1989 W124 series. 

The C Class is a W203 series. Many are rust-free, but ours, rather unfortunately, isn’t. However, it’s still a nice car any very reliable and economical.

I ran a 1994 W124 E320 Cabriolet for 5 years, just selling it 1 year ago. It was a hand made car before the rot set in at Mewrcedes in the mid 90s.For a 20 year old car it was trouble free and still a head turner. The lower cost electric hatchbacks look like motorised shopping trolleys in comparison. Yuk. Give me aesthetics,  practicality and long range any time.

Don Atkinson posted:

Three of mine were W123 series and the estate we have just sold was a 1989 W124 series. 

 

The W123 series was reputed to be rock-solid.  There still seem to be loads of them in use in Africa and the Middle East. For me, I preferred the shape of the W124.  Daft, I know, but I particularly liked the different size side mirrors, Mercedes deeming that a smaller one was optimal on the passenger side. No cost-cutting there.  

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

For the past 40 years I have run 4 Mercedes E Class cars plus an S Class and a C Class. They had all done well over 300,000 miles by the time I have sold them. I sold the last of the E Class last week when it was over 28 years old and still going strong !

I very much doubt if any current electric car will match these Mercs  in terms of whole life cost and reliability.

The next one will be another E Class estate burning diesel.

Enjoy your farty, rough, slow car.

"Waddya mean I can't charge it at home? I have to stop during my driving to fuel it? Every time? That's pretty inconvenient. I have to carry around a tank of flammable liquid? What's that pipe at the back? What's that gas coming out of it? Is it poisonous? Wow, it's slow. What's that noise?"

A bit of an over-reaction winky, even for you !

and we aren’t even talking about bikes.

There’s nothing farty, rough or slow about any of the Mercs I have owned. OTOH I don’t put myself into the position of needing to drive them fast.

I’m basing most of my comments on practical experience. Not wishful thinking and seller’s optimism. However, only time will tell !

Kiwi cat posted:

I ran a 1994 W124 E320 Cabriolet for 5 years, just selling it 1 year ago. It was a hand made car before the rot set in at Mewrcedes in the mid 90s.For a 20 year old car it was trouble free and still a head turner. The lower cost electric hatchbacks look like motorised shopping trolleys in comparison. Yuk. Give me aesthetics,  practicality and long range any time.

A header-turner, indeed, Kiwi cat.  W124 E320 Cabriolet's in good condition command a very handsome price in the classic car market today.

The W211 suspension was its Achilles heel. My  E280 suspension collapsed  just under 12k miles. Once fixed, it has been trouble free since. 

Perhaps I should have added that my E320 ran like a dream and to this day my wife still misses that car. It just rusted to bits. . 

Yes, you're right, Tony.  I've known it happen on a few. The SBC braking system could also be troublesome with the unit needing replacing, up until the face-lift in late 2006 when the system was changed.  

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

For the past 40 years I have run 4 Mercedes E Class cars plus an S Class and a C Class. They had all done well over 300,000 miles by the time I have sold them. I sold the last of the E Class last week when it was over 28 years old and still going strong !

I very much doubt if any current electric car will match these Mercs  in terms of whole life cost and reliability.

The next one will be another E Class estate burning diesel.

Enjoy your farty, rough, slow car.

"Waddya mean I can't charge it at home? I have to stop during my driving to fuel it? Every time? That's pretty inconvenient. I have to carry around a tank of flammable liquid? What's that pipe at the back? What's that gas coming out of it? Is it poisonous? Wow, it's slow. What's that noise?"

A bit of an over-reaction winky, even for you !

and we aren’t even talking about bikes.

There’s nothing farty, rough or slow about any of the Mercs I have owned. OTOH I don’t put myself into the position of needing to drive them fast.

I’m basing most of my comments on practical experience. Not wishful thinking and seller’s optimism. However, only time will tell !

Farty in the sense that noxious gas is emitted from its rear end. Rough, loud and rattly from the outside. Of course MB are very good at cocooning the occupants so they can proceed under the illusion that they're not being obnoxious to other people. Your 70 mpg C-class was a fast car?