Electric Cars - Saviours of our environment or just another fad?

As for winkyincanada, you really do want to hear the farty noise that comes out of my Cayman S when you put the foot down. I was in France earlier this year and stopped off at Honfleur for breakfast. I left the car in the local car park and when we returned saw 3 kids hanging around it. When I approached I saw that they were taking selfies.

Another time, again in France (not bad for a committed Brexiteer, eh) I approached a zebra crossing and this dissolute tramp looking guy wandered over the crossing, stopped in the middle and looked straight at me. He just raised his thumb and carried on. Superb.

Mercedes went through a rough patch in terms of quality around the turn of the millenium.

However, cars made after 1st January 2006 were much better, especially the E class.  Dieter Zetsche put his foot down in late 2005 and told his senior management that they would be toast if the field quality issues remained in 2006.  It scared them enough to make a big difference.

MDS posted:

Yes, you're right, Tony.  I've known it happen on a few. The SBC braking system could also be troublesome with the unit needing replacing, up until the face-lift in late 2006 when the system was changed.  

I’ve heard of the braking system issues, Mike. Mind you, I’ve only done 37k on it in the last 6 years. Going for an M.O.T. next week and never had any issues before so let’s not jinx it and fingers crossed it will pass trouble free. 

As for others commenting on fast Mercs, I think the first thing most people have in mind when buying a Merc is comfort. Speed is just a bonus. That was my case anyway.

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

For the past 40 years I have run 4 Mercedes E Class cars plus an S Class and a C Class. They had all done well over 300,000 miles by the time I have sold them. I sold the last of the E Class last week when it was over 28 years old and still going strong !

I very much doubt if any current electric car will match these Mercs  in terms of whole life cost and reliability.

The next one will be another E Class estate burning diesel.

Enjoy your farty, rough, slow car.

"Waddya mean I can't charge it at home? I have to stop during my driving to fuel it? Every time? That's pretty inconvenient. I have to carry around a tank of flammable liquid? What's that pipe at the back? What's that gas coming out of it? Is it poisonous? Wow, it's slow. What's that noise?"

A bit of an over-reaction winky, even for you !

and we aren’t even talking about bikes.

There’s nothing farty, rough or slow about any of the Mercs I have owned. OTOH I don’t put myself into the position of needing to drive them fast.

I’m basing most of my comments on practical experience. Not wishful thinking and seller’s optimism. However, only time will tell !

Farty in the sense that noxious gas is emitted from its rear end. Rough, loud and rattly from the outside. Of course MB are very good at cocooning the occupants so they can proceed under the illusion that they're not being obnoxious to other people. Your 70 mpg C-class was a fast car?

The noxious gas either comes out of the exhaust (there isn't much of it from this car) or out of the electricity generating power station in Yorkshire. I often see Mrs D driving the car, and whether it's in/out of our driveway or along the roads nearby, It doesn't sound rough, it isn't loud at all and there are no rattles whatsoever. As for "fast", it most certainly can out-accelerate most cars if I choose to, and it cruises very nicely. Of course, it won't do 0 to 60 in 1.9 secs, but who needs to do that ! You over-reacted.

As for "refuelling", I could easily refuel an electric car overnight. We live in a detached property with plenty of off-street parking for about half a dozen cars. No problem with cables or plugin points. (I'm not entirely convinced I would be happy to provide free electricity to ALL our visitors !!) OTOH, my youngest daughter lives in Wimbledon with no off-street parking. She would have to run a cable across a public pavement to her car parked on a street. Hopefully next to her house and not 10 car along the street ! And so would a hundred other people in that street. A hundred criss-crossed cables !! Never-the-less, neither of us could reliably make the journey to Newcastle without refuelling in an electric car. I can do the journey there and back without refuelling in the C Class, the E Class (now gone) and the BMW SUV.

As for Vernon to Canmore....................

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

For the past 40 years I have run 4 Mercedes E Class cars plus an S Class and a C Class. They had all done well over 300,000 miles by the time I have sold them. I sold the last of the E Class last week when it was over 28 years old and still going strong !

I very much doubt if any current electric car will match these Mercs  in terms of whole life cost and reliability.

The next one will be another E Class estate burning diesel.

Enjoy your farty, rough, slow car.

"Waddya mean I can't charge it at home? I have to stop during my driving to fuel it? Every time? That's pretty inconvenient. I have to carry around a tank of flammable liquid? What's that pipe at the back? What's that gas coming out of it? Is it poisonous? Wow, it's slow. What's that noise?"

A bit of an over-reaction winky, even for you !

and we aren’t even talking about bikes.

There’s nothing farty, rough or slow about any of the Mercs I have owned. OTOH I don’t put myself into the position of needing to drive them fast.

I’m basing most of my comments on practical experience. Not wishful thinking and seller’s optimism. However, only time will tell !

Farty in the sense that noxious gas is emitted from its rear end. Rough, loud and rattly from the outside. Of course MB are very good at cocooning the occupants so they can proceed under the illusion that they're not being obnoxious to other people. Your 70 mpg C-class was a fast car?

The noxious gas either comes out of the exhaust (there isn't much of it from this car) or out of the electricity generating power station in Yorkshire. I often see Mrs D driving the car, and whether it's in/out of our driveway or along the roads nearby, It doesn't sound rough, it isn't loud at all and there are no rattles whatsoever. As for "fast", it most certainly can out-accelerate most cars if I choose to, and it cruises very nicely. Of course, it won't do 0 to 60 in 1.9 secs, but who needs to do that ! You over-reacted.

As for "refuelling", I could easily refuel an electric car overnight. We live in a detached property with plenty of off-street parking for about half a dozen cars. No problem with cables or plugin points. (I'm not entirely convinced I would be happy to provide free electricity to ALL our visitors !!) OTOH, my youngest daughter lives in Wimbledon with no off-street parking. She would have to run a cable across a public pavement to her car parked on a street. Hopefully next to her house and not 10 car along the street ! And so would a hundred other people in that street. A hundred criss-crossed cables !! Never-the-less, neither of us could reliably make the journey to Newcastle without refuelling in an electric car. I can do the journey there and back without refuelling in the C Class, the E Class (now gone) and the BMW SUV.

As for Vernon to Canmore....................

This was part of my point, you need to consider the full life cycle, as in the case of some reneables the amount of energy to get the battery or whatever else, actually puts you in deficit.

With regards to Tesla and any other BEV, unless the package space remains the same and the tech then its a retrofit market and as you say tech and prices drop then within 10 years you battery will probably be obsolete.

Recall analysts saying by the time Tesla build there Gig Factory and up to capacity it will probably be out of date.

I personally think Toyota have the right idea with Hybrids and they make money and it all works with the same defined package space (trans area) so there Prius is a platform thats handles every type of propulsion - the cars desirability is not for me, but got to say for 30 yrs they have been stable, chipping away and making money on Hybrids.

Ultimately, cars will need to be powered by renewable sources of energy. So eventually they will need to be powered by solar and wind generated electricity, biofuels, or hydrogen generated by solar and wind generated electricity. So not a fad. 

I have this feeling that electric cars today might be where Personal Computers were in 1984.....

.....the Amstrad CPC464......

ie, a step in the right direction, but soon to be overtaken and rendered worthless.

I suspect you are right, Don, though unfortunately I doubt that we'll see the effect of Moore's law in this field.

Cars have been incrementally improved since their introduction over a hundred years ago. I struggling to think of a 'big jump' in all that time, with the possible exception of the assembly-line and mass production which made cars much more affordable.  I don't see electric power changing that.  At the end of the day, cars are a consumer product and I suspect consumers would need to see a big prize in either new and desirable functionality or price to persuade them to change in large numbers, perhaps as we've seen with the introduction of the smart phone. I get the attraction of lower emissions (measured narrowly to the vehicle) but will millions and millions of consumers around the world be persuaded by that factor alone? I suspect not, especially when it would also involve some change in habits to adopt re the different changing requirements and range. Nor do I see democratic governments forcing a change, though they make encourage and incentivise.  

MDS posted:

I suspect you are right, Don, though unfortunately I doubt that we'll see the effect of Moore's law in this field.

Cars have been incrementally improved since their introduction over a hundred years ago. I struggling to think of a 'big jump' in all that time, with the possible exception of the assembly-line and mass production which made cars much more affordable.  I don't see electric power changing that.  At the end of the day, cars are a consumer product and I suspect consumers would need to see a big prize in either new and desirable functionality or price to persuade them to change in large numbers, perhaps as we've seen with the introduction of the smart phone. I get the attraction of lower emissions (measured narrowly to the vehicle) but will millions and millions of consumers around the world be persuaded by that factor alone? I suspect not, especially when it would also involve some change in habits to adopt re the different changing requirements and range. Nor do I see democratic governments forcing a change, though they make encourage and incentivise.  

Electric cars are already better than ICE cars in every significant measure except purchase price (and for a minority of journeys, range). If improvements come at a rate that mean a 10-year-old Tesla is comparatively useless, then the era of the ICE vehicles will well-and-truly be over.

In terms of GHG emissions, electric cars, including the power generation and distribution are at least as good as ICE vehicles. If powered by coal-generated electricity they are about equivalent, if powered by gas they are twice as efficient, and if powered by renewables or nuclear they are many, many times better. In the UK, the amount of electricity provided by coal is dropping fast. There has been at least one period where coal's contribution to the grid was zero. 

The range anxiety that Don feels is largely due to his fairly unusual heavy long-range driving habits, and yes, for a long cross-country trip an ICE vehicle would currently be more convenient, and the only option on many routes. But that's not 95% of what people do with their cars.

Don's poor daughter, who unfortunately has to own a car while living in London(!), would seems to have a charging issue, due to her habit of leaving her vehicle on public property when she's not using it. Tesla , in the US, are installing some city-central superchargers to allow plug-challenged owners to refuel just like they do with their ICE vehicles. Takes a little longer, to be sure. Not ideal. Curb-side chargers (like parking meters) are one future option for the small % of drivers who are inner-city dwellers who leave their cars on the street. (Don's concerns about neighbours "borrowing" his power are unfounded. Chargers and cars are "smart" enough to allow only authorised charging. If you neighbour plugs into your private charger, their car won't charge. In the case of public charging, the charger knows the vehicle and automatically extracts payment from the linked account.)

Winky - I'm not challenging the benefits you outline but whereas you are clearly interested and convinced I'm suggesting that most car buyers will approach the topic in more simplistic terms e.g. is that electric car cheaper to buy and/or run than the car I would normally buy? Does it do all the things I need my normal car to do? Does is do things that I want that my normal car can't?

Without positive answers to one or more of these questions most folk will stick to what they know.

And just to be clear, nor am I disagreeing with you that electric powered cars are the future. I'm simply saying that the journey to that future will be long and incremental.

M  

MDS posted:

Winky - I'm not challenging the benefits you outline but whereas you are clearly interested and convinced I'm suggesting that most car buyers will approach the topic in more simplistic terms e.g. is that electric car cheaper to buy and/or run than the car I would normally buy? Does it do all the things I need my normal car to do? Does is do things that I want that my normal car can't?

Without positive answers to one or more of these questions most folk will stick to what they know.

And just to be clear, nor am I disagreeing with you that electric powered cars are the future. I'm simply saying that the journey to that future will be long and incremental.

M  

      

I don't think it's as far away as many think. Heading up the short climb on my way to work today, I was passed by about a dozen vehicles. One was a BMW i3, 2 were Model X Teslas and then a Model S Tesla. I saw several other Teslas over the remainder of my journey. These electric cars are everywhere around here, and getting more and more common by the day.

Having said that, the incumbent car makers aren't really interested. They are largely using electrification as a greenwash marketing tool and to cheat emissions and fuel economy regulations with their stupid plug-in hybrids with tiny batteries. IBM and DEC weren't interested in personal computers, either, constantly pointing out their shortcomings and what they couldn't do. I'm sure the Sony consumer video camera division (while packing more and more unused "features" into their cameras) scoffed at the first GoPros, too - "What?! It doesn't even have a screen to see what you're shooting!"

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-42090991

Tesla does big battery in Australia.

I also note that Tesla are guaranteeing electricity prices at 7c per kwh for buyers of their electric semi. They can do this because real power generating costs are now effectively capped at the cost of renewable energy, which in many jurisdictions is lower than anything else available for new generation capacity. The world record for the lowest ever tender price for power generation was set by solar in Mexico earlier this year. 1.7c per kwh if I recall correctly.

I find the US response to chinese solar cell pricing to be baffling.

http://fortune.com/2017/09/22/solar-costs-tariffs/

They accuse China of "dumping" subsidised solar cells and have threatened tariffs to protect the domestic industry. If I was the US, I'd be all "Send as many as you can! If you want to sell them to us at a loss, that's your business. We'll install them like crazy and use all the cheap power to become even more wealthy."

I too have noticed an increasing number of Tesla's where I live.  I suspect there's a bit of novelty value for the reasonably well-off buyers rather like the rush of many of the well-heeled to be seen in Prius when that was released and trendy. But I agree that the main-stream manufacturers will likely drag their heels, as will the ordinary buyer who regards a car like a washing machine or fridge.  

Nothing wrong with a bit of optimism though, Winky.  I need to tell myself not to be a grumpy old git now and again. 

Not exactly sure where Winky lives in Canada but here in the UK the amount of people who have houses with easy access to either an electric socket or full scale charging equipment is limited. Flats are prevalent amongst new builds and the idea that there would be easy access to parking ,never mind the electrical infrastructure needed for easy charging, would be naive. Almost all of London and millions of people would be challenged to have easy, if any access to charging facilities. The centres of Bath, Bristol, Edinburgh and most large UK cities would face huge infrastructure challenges. 

I, personally, would face no problem in installing such equipment but even my sons, one of whom has a detached house and the other semi detached could drag a cable to a car but not sure about fast charging equipment. There is a long, long journey ahead to map electrification of cars.

Resurrection posted:

Not exactly sure where Winky lives in Canada but here in the UK the amount of people who have houses with easy access to either an electric socket or full scale charging equipment is limited. Flats are prevalent amongst new builds and the idea that there would be easy access to parking ,never mind the electrical infrastructure needed for easy charging, would be naive. Almost all of London and millions of people would be challenged to have easy, if any access to charging facilities. The centres of Bath, Bristol, Edinburgh and most large UK cities would face huge infrastructure challenges. 

I, personally, would face no problem in installing such equipment but even my sons, one of whom has a detached house and the other semi detached could drag a cable to a car but not sure about fast charging equipment. There is a long, long journey ahead to map electrification of cars.

I lived in Bristol for a couple of years. I just loved that I could get by without a car at all. I had nowhere to park it anyway. Here in Vancouver, where I live, there are certainly suburbs where people leave their cars on public property when they aren't using them. It's not the majority circumstance that no off-street parking is available, though. In the downtown, we have massive underused underground parkades. We have sprawling suburbs where 4 or 5 cars per household is common (after the driveway is full, they are parked on the street). But there are some areas where street parking is the only option for those that must have a private car or 2. We have some perverse situations where a resident parking permit is much cheaper than leasing a spot in the building parkade, so underground spots remain empty while our streets are clogged.

Here's another weird effect of people feeling entitled to priority street parking. The opposition to dual-occupancy dwellings (rental suites as part of a dwelling) in much of Vancouver is based on parking issues. So ironically, the higher-density that dual occupancy allows, and that should result in less reliance on private motor vehicles, is prevented because of private motor vehicles. Letter writers also get it completely wrong when they argue against high-rise development on the basis of traffic.

winkyincanada posted:

MDS posted:

I suspect you are right, Don, though unfortunately I doubt that we'll see the effect of Moore's law in this field.

Cars have been incrementally improved since their introduction over a hundred years ago. I struggling to think of a 'big jump' in all that time, with the possible exception of the assembly-line and mass production which made cars much more affordable.  I don't see electric power changing that.  At the end of the day, cars are a consumer product and I suspect consumers would need to see a big prize in either new and desirable functionality or price to persuade them to change in large numbers, perhaps as we've seen with the introduction of the smart phone. I get the attraction of lower emissions (measured narrowly to the vehicle) but will millions and millions of consumers around the world be persuaded by that factor alone? I suspect not, especially when it would also involve some change in habits to adopt re the different changing requirements and range. Nor do I see democratic governments forcing a change, though they make encourage and incentivise.  

Electric cars are already better than ICE cars in every significant measure except purchase price (and for a minority of journeys, range). If improvements come at a rate that mean a 10-year-old Tesla is comparatively useless, then the era of the ICE vehicles will well-and-truly be over.

In terms of GHG emissions, electric cars, including the power generation and distribution are at least as good as ICE vehicles. If powered by coal-generated electricity they are about equivalent, if powered by gas they are twice as efficient, and if powered by renewables or nuclear they are many, many times better. In the UK, the amount of electricity provided by coal is dropping fast. There has been at least one period where coal's contribution to the grid was zero. 

The range anxiety that Don feels is largely due to his fairly unusual heavy long-range driving habits, and yes, for a long cross-country trip an ICE vehicle would currently be more convenient, and the only option on many routes. But that's not 95% of what people do with their cars.

Don's poor daughter, who unfortunately has to own a car while living in London(!), would seems to have a charging issue, due to her habit of leaving her vehicle on public property when she's not using it. Tesla , in the US, are installing some city-central superchargers to allow plug-challenged owners to refuel just like they do with their ICE vehicles. Takes a little longer, to be sure. Not ideal. Curb-side chargers (like parking meters) are one future option for the small % of drivers who are inner-city dwellers who leave their cars on the street. (Don's concerns about neighbours "borrowing" his power are unfounded. Chargers and cars are "smart" enough to allow only authorised charging. If you neighbour plugs into your private charger, their car won't charge. In the case of public charging, the charger knows the vehicle and automatically extracts payment from the linked account.)

Yes, ICE cars are better in two crucial aspects, capital cost and range.

We still rely heavily on coal fired power. Even when the grid only buys wind/solar at times of minimal demand, the coal fired stations are still running, ready for the next demand.

There is no range anxiety here. Just a practical outlook that means today’s electric cars are impractical for many, many people. Not just me.

My daughter is far from poor. They live in Wimbledon and they  commute to work in Waterloo by cycle, and occasionally public transport. They use their car to have easy, inexpensive, convenient access to the countryside at weekends and holidays.

Resurection has described the same infrastructure issue that I outlined. They and their neighbours own the parking strip adjacent to the footpath and the road. Only they and the other property owners and their guests are allowed to park. The problem of recharging in these typical situations is widespread.

I wasn’t referring to neighbours borrowing my electricity. I don’t mind, but I can see a lot of long- distance visitors wanting to use their host’s domestic recharging points rather popping down to the local “filling station”

Chevrolet are able to sell every Bolt they can make. Sales continue to rise. Production now at the rate of 30,000 per year.  They have had to tell dealers in Norway to stop taking orders as they can't supply the vehicles fast enough.

Tesla finally managing to ramp-up Model 3 production and are now delivering to regular customers. The 3 months that they are behind schedule will quickly be forgotten. They have pre-orders for close to half a million cars.

Feels like the revolution continues. (Of course we'll all be able to easily afford them when we cash in our Bitcoin.)

Abstract from the BBC Politics news

The government is considering a "pay-per-mile" scheme for lorries to cover the cost of damage to roads.

Transport Secretary Chris Grayling confirmed the current HGV levy, used to pay for wear and tear on the road network, was being consulted on.

Critics say the current scheme means international drivers using the roads do not have to pay towards upkeep.

But the Road Haulage Association (RHA) said it was unfair to target lorries and it needs to see more detail.

Mr Grayling denied any plans for a road toll system for other vehicles for the "foreseeable future".

A short debate on BBC 4 as I was travelling home from work today, made it clear that the tax revenue from vehicles is on a steady decline due to the transfer from diesel/petrol to electricity. Discussion suggested that the "pay-per-mile" scheme for lorries above, might well be the solution for cars pretty soon. The current principal source of income from motorists is virtually pay-per-mile anyway, since it comes from fuel tax. But it would take a strong gov. with a massive majority to get such a change through Parliament. The discussion seemed to suggest that other ways of replacing the declining revenue will need to be considered soon and would need to be seen to be a fair burden on the population eg, hiking up the price of electricity for everybody. in order to collect revenue from a few e-vehicle owners would not go down too well !

How would YOU set about maintaining the revenue stream currently provided by motorists and HGVs ?

Don Atkinson posted:

Abstract from the BBC Politics news

The government is considering a "pay-per-mile" scheme for lorries to cover the cost of damage to roads.

Transport Secretary Chris Grayling confirmed the current HGV levy, used to pay for wear and tear on the road network, was being consulted on.

Critics say the current scheme means international drivers using the roads do not have to pay towards upkeep.

But the Road Haulage Association (RHA) said it was unfair to target lorries and it needs to see more detail.

Mr Grayling denied any plans for a road toll system for other vehicles for the "foreseeable future".

A short debate on BBC 4 as I was travelling home from work today, made it clear that the tax revenue from vehicles is on a steady decline due to the transfer from diesel/petrol to electricity. Discussion suggested that the "pay-per-mile" scheme for lorries above, might well be the solution for cars pretty soon. The current principal source of income from motorists is virtually pay-per-mile anyway, since it comes from fuel tax. But it would take a strong gov. with a massive majority to get such a change through Parliament. The discussion seemed to suggest that other ways of replacing the declining revenue will need to be considered soon and would need to be seen to be a fair burden on the population eg, hiking up the price of electricity for everybody. in order to collect revenue from a few e-vehicle owners would not go down too well !

How would YOU set about maintaining the revenue stream currently provided by motorists and HGVs ?

E-vehicles typically provide a large amount of data about their usage, and tolling them for road use would be a socio-political, not technical issue. That e-vehicles currently slip by petrol tax, and congestion charges, is arguably a form of subsidy, but the reduction in local emissions is something that (in my view) should be incentivised. Tolling road use based on overall environmental impact of that use seems the right thing to me.

We create revenue streams to fund public services such as education, healthcare, policing, defence etc. Income tax and corporation tax seems to me to be a much more fair way of funding than disproportionally taxing specific forms of transport, whether that transport is for leisure or commerce (food, building material etc). But for sure, society and politicians will use a range of techniques to encourage/discourage certain activities.

Yes, it's all socio-political. I am just curious as to what range of socio-political thinking exists.

As you suggest, Don, in the long-term the future is road-pricing. It would be much more flexible as a policy tool and sustainable in revenue terms than the current mix of road fund licence and fuel duty.  You might recall that this was looked at during the last Labour government when Alistair Darling was SoS for Transport and Gordon Brown was Chancellor.   The technology was doable then and would be even easier today but politics aren't easy and the transition from what we have today to comprehensive road-pricing for all vehicles would be difficult. 

Don Atkinson posted:

We create revenue streams to fund public services such as education, healthcare, policing, defence etc. Income tax and corporation tax seems to me to be a much more fair way of funding than disproportionally taxing specific forms of transport, whether that transport is for leisure or commerce (food, building material etc). But for sure, society and politicians will use a range of techniques to encourage/discourage certain activities.

Yes, it's all socio-political. I am just curious as to what range of socio-political thinking exists.

The right balance between strict user-pays systems and comprehensive subsidies is complex and always subject to revision. The best answer usually lies somewhere in the middle.

winkyincanada posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

We create revenue streams to fund public services such as education, healthcare, policing, defence etc. Income tax and corporation tax seems to me to be a much more fair way of funding than disproportionally taxing specific forms of transport, whether that transport is for leisure or commerce (food, building material etc). But for sure, society and politicians will use a range of techniques to encourage/discourage certain activities.

Yes, it's all socio-political. I am just curious as to what range of socio-political thinking exists.

The right balance between strict user-pays systems and comprehensive subsidies is complex and always subject to revision. The best answer usually lies somewhere in the middle.

I'm always somewhat nervous when we seem to agree.................

Most people in Britain, I'd say, are going to be holding back on an EV purchase for a fair while yet. Money isn't in abundance, and personal lease schemes are getting more expensive. Just as I don't k is anyone who goes on mates-weekends in Eastern Europe like they did in the early noughties, I know nobody who is buying a new car. 

So that leaves used cars. There are two Lexus hybrids in the work's car park. The owners don't rave about them, which surprises me given the owners' usual characteristics. 

Theres a lot of uncertainty in the U.K.  If my job fizzles out, gawd knows where my next job will be and how much less I'll be earning. 

'If' there was a more certain future for me up to my retirement, I'd need a solar storage device to make a battery car useable. Cost for a useful one? Bye bye £4000 to £6000. I can't warrant that, and knowing my luck, six month after installation there'll be a price drop and capacity leap. 

My diesel saloon is mine, and forgetting depreciation has cost me fifteen tanks of fuel, an MoT, insurance, and a £300 service. Less than £2k for 10,000 miles. If necessary it can do home to Newcastle and back in a day, with local errands while up there. And yes, I've had to do this. 

Asking me to spend/lose more on the big unknown is too much. And I'm far from alone on that. 

Tony Lockhart posted:

......I'd need a solar storage device to make a battery car useable.......

Why is that?