Another dedicated mains supply post!

Posted by: Bryce Curdy on 26 August 2017

By chance, the post at the top of the list (when I started typing) relates to this too and if the mods want to merge my thread I will have no objections.

Having heard the difference a power lead (Chord Sarum) can make I am more than convinced of the merits of a good mains supply.  There are a lot of doubters out there and I'm sure it's system and house dependent to a degree.

i now want to install a dedicated mains supply. My system is CD555 with PS555DR, 552DR and 300 (about to be DR upgraded), so far from shabby but probably not ever going to upgrade to a 500 or go active. I'll be upgrading my loudspeakers too in the relatively near future, possibly to Sonus Faber Guarneris. I have a Rega Planar 3 TT with a smallish vinyl collection and MIGHT consider a streamer at some point but I don't want to factor either of these into my decision making.

My dealer who knows his stuff is suggesting two dedicated supplies each on a single high end socket (Lens). He is suggesting the 555 and 552 would feed into a isol-8 powerline axis which would then feed into one socket and the 300 would feed into the other socket directly. This would potentially involve 4 top end (Sarum T?) mains leads. I own three Chord Sarum SA already. So there's my first question. I could potentially have three high end sockets on two power supplies and bypass the need for the isol-8 powerline and the fourth power lead. Does the lead diameter need to be factored into this decision? If I have dedicated supply/supplies, high end sockets and mains leads would the isol-8 add anything? Or is there one of the other components I'm discussing which would add little? Do I need all of the above? If I need the isol-8 powerline is there a superior model I should be considering? I'm sure I've read somewhere that things feeding into a single socket has advantages. And if the isol-8 is adding anything should the 300 not feed into it also or a separate isol-8 if separating sources from power is important.

And then I've read on here about 'balanced power supplies', 'dedicated earth spikes' and 'split meter tails with Henley blocks' which have gone straight over my head but as one of the converted if they would make a difference I'm willing to splash the cash within reason. What is the difference betweeen an MCB and an RCD? I'm guessing an MCB means two accounts and meters? Is this worth it? Is this easy to set up with your average energy supplier? My dealer is recommending 10mm, ideally 15mm cables. Is the MCB/RCD/cable brand matter important and if so does anyone have particular recommendations?

Sorry for so many guestions but probably one of the most confusing topics on the forum to your average punter.

Posted on: 26 August 2017 by Finkfan

Hi Bryce. It looks like you're UK based so that will make some suggestions easier. First of all you dont need 2 supplies from your energy company. Ideally you should get and electrician to split the tails after the meter. One set to your house consumer unit and another set to a dedicated consumer unit for your hifi. The earth should be connected as close to the incoming earth as possible. Your electrician will advise on MCBs, RCD, MCBOs and fuses for this box. 10mm t and e cable then run to each socket, if you need more than one. 

Posted on: 26 August 2017 by Blackmorec
Bryce Curdy posted:

Having heard the difference a power lead (Chord Sarum) can make I am more than convinced of the merits of a good mains supply.  There are a lot of doubters out there and I'm sure it's system and house dependent to a degree.

As much as a single power lead can change the performance of a component (for better or worse, depending on what you're substituting), the impact of the cable running from your consumer unit to your hi-fi socket can have a major impact on the sound of your entire system. I have installed and listened to more than a dozen different  supply cables in my time. Believe me, there's nothing worse than powering up a newly installed supply and wanting to vomit at the hard, harsh, closed-in, amusical sound it produces. But what's even worse is enduring the sonic garbage for three or four hundred hours waiting for it to burn in..... and it never does.  It just goes on sounding horrible. Happily there is a solution. Install cable that has a reputation for sounding good.

I have never found any evidence that the trend of going to mega cross sectional area cabling has any real sonic benefit that's not far outweighed by installing a cable of high sonic repute with sufficient cross sectional area  to compliment the fuse and socket ratings and demands of the system. 

I've tried a couple of ultra heavy duty supply cable installations and neither worked. What has worked every time are installations based on purchasing cable that has proven sonic attributes when used with hi-fi systems.  They cost a bit more than run of the mill contractor wire, but in every case it was money very well spent.

Again in my experience a system whose power supply and earth go back to a single socket has always performed better than the same system used with multiple supply lines back to the C/U.

Regarding mains conditioners. Again in my experience there are good conditioners and bad conditioners. There are those that limit and those that enhance dynamics, those that shrink and those that expand and deepen the soundstage. In this age of digital electronics, internet over mains etc. feeding  hi-fi electronics properly cleaned and filtered mains can be highly beneficial.  Finally, possibly the biggest reason for poor hi-fi system performance are poor quality mains blocks. If you are going to put in a new supply, do yourself a favour and make sure you are connecting your power cables to an adequate power block. Anything that compromises plug contact or has poor earthing (differing resistances) will immediately limit and degrade your entire system's performance.

Final word....make sure whoever does your installation is adequately qualified to do the job as silly little mistakes can be fatal.

Posted on: 26 August 2017 by Foot tapper

My experience of trying (separately) both £4 figure mains conditioners a £600 balanced power supply is that a large balanced power supply feeding your Naim system via 10mm2 mains cable in a single radial is the very best value for money route to take.  I found it made the system more musical too.

By all means try huge mains regenerators and expensive power conditioners if you wish, then fit a BPS on a dedicated mains radial supply, relax and enjoy your wonderful music collection.

Hope this helps, FT

Posted on: 26 August 2017 by Bryce Curdy

Thanks to all.

Finkfan - correct, UK based.

Alba1320 - obviously Mr Vereker's views are of huge interest and I suppose my only qualification would be that they are nearly 20 years old and Naim always have a bit of a reputation for only doing things their way, only using their cables etc but food for thought.

BlackmoreC - so what 10mm cables and mains conditioners would you recommend? And probably a really stupid comment but what is a power block if I have a mains conditioner?

Foot tapper - where would the balanced power supply go? How big and heavy are they?

Posted on: 26 August 2017 by Blackmorec

Interesting. Balanced power was one thing I was considering but never actually tried.  Which brand of transformer are you using? Is it in your hi-fi room or close to your fuse box? How warm does it get? Does it hum or is it reasonably quiet in operation? Do you leave it powered up the whole time (can't imagine why you wouldn't) .  Finally did you find it had a major impact on SQ?

If it works as you state it would certainly be more cost effective than even a half decent power cord

Posted on: 26 August 2017 by Foot tapper
Bryce Curdy posted:

...
Foot tapper - where would the balanced power supply go? How big and heavy are they?

Have a search for the Naim forum thread called "Suffering from those transformer hum blues?"

I started it about 2 years ago and it should tell you all you need to know.  As a BPS has a substantial transformer at its heart, you should expect it to hum if your mains is "dirty".  Strangely, mine hums a lot less and more quietly than the transformer in the 555PS and Supercap did.  However, just in case, mine was installed by the electrician in the garage, just below the main electrical consumer unit for the house, then we ran the radial from there to the living room.

Picture of our BPS to follow if I can load it up in time...

5kVA Airlink BPS

Hope this helps, FT

Posted on: 27 August 2017 by Bryce Curdy

Really grateful if BlackmoreC or anyone else could recommend a couple of 10mm T&E cables.

Posted on: 27 August 2017 by audio1946

one thing that most don't realise is that putting an isolating transformer IN LINE removes the earth from the N

Posted on: 27 August 2017 by Blackmorec
Bryce Curdy posted:

Really grateful if BlackmoreC or anyone else could recommend a couple of 10mm T&E cables.

Sorry, I don't use 10mm cable. I've only had bad experiences with it, especially the solid core stuff.  In both the cases I used such heavy duty cables, the sound was harsh, compressed with a technical, hi-fi (as opposed to musical) character  which never really improved and both were eventually torn out and replaced.

In terms of cable choice, there are some excellent cables made by Furutech, Oyaide,  Via Blue and of course our very own Russ Andrews. There are probably many others too.  Like power cables, prices vary hugely so your choice will likely be based on  specification, sonic attributes and economics. 

I ALWAYS prefer stranded cable, but you must take advice from a qualified electrician as there are certain specifications and installation requirements when using stranded flexible cable in a building installation.

What all the cables I would now use have in common is that they are all recommended for hi-fi use.  I've played around extensively with power cables and some can sound utterly horrible.

Posted on: 27 August 2017 by Bryce Curdy
audio1946 posted:

one thing that most don't realise is that putting an isolating transformer IN LINE removes the earth from the N

What are the implications of this then?

Posted on: 27 August 2017 by Bryce Curdy
Blackmorec posted:
Bryce Curdy posted:

Really grateful if BlackmoreC or anyone else could recommend a couple of 10mm T&E cables.

Sorry, I don't use 10mm cable. I've only had bad experiences with it, especially the solid core stuff.  In both the cases I used such heavy duty cables, the sound was harsh, compressed with a technical, hi-fi (as opposed to musical) character  which never really improved and both were eventually torn out and replaced.

In terms of cable choice, there are some excellent cables made by Furutech, Oyaide,  Via Blue and of course our very own Russ Andrews. There are probably many others too.  Like power cables, prices vary hugely so your choice will likely be based on  specification, sonic attributes and economics. 

I ALWAYS prefer stranded cable, but you must take advice from a qualified electrician as there are certain specifications and installation requirements when using stranded flexible cable in a building installation.

What all the cables I would now use have in common is that they are all recommended for hi-fi use.  I've played around extensively with power cables and some can sound utterly horrible.

So are solid core and stranded the two options? And what diameter of cable have you had best results with if less than 10mm? Oh, and thank you.

Posted on: 27 August 2017 by hungryhalibut

For what it's worth - very little probably - when I had a spur installed I asked Naim what to do and they recommended a single 10mm wire. So that's what we did. We have only one double unswitched socket on the end. When we needed more than two plugs we used a Grahams Hydra. If I wanted more now I'd have two double sockets on the end of the spur, rather than using a powerblock if only to avoid a large expensive block sitting in the room. 

The wire is just a bog standard SWA supplied by the electrician, as it runs round the outside of the house in the flower bed. Nothing fancy at all, but it works really well with no sonic issues, and improved the sound over the ring main significantly - at that time I was using a 552/300 so it was a highly resolving setup. One change we made a couple of years ago was to run the earth from the stereo's CU back to the meter cupboard: previously it was piggy backed off the main CU. 

The Henley Block that you mentioned earlier is the black plastic box that has the meter tails going in and two sets of tails coming out. 

Posted on: 27 August 2017 by Finkfan

[@mention:1566878603866847] from 4mm up in twin and earth stranded is the only option.

Like HH I've had 10mm fitted. I compared to 2.5 and 6mm. They do sound different, but 10mm was the best in my opinion. Everyone hears things differently though.

When it comes to t & e recommendations, just don't use the cheap stuff from a Diy store. Get your electrician to cut open a piece of the cable he uses. I found most of the phase and neutral conductors to be pretty much the same but the cheap cables use a mixture of metals in the earth to save money. I'm sure your sparky will use cable with a decent copper earth conductor. You'll be able to tell as soon as he opens it up. 

Posted on: 27 August 2017 by Finkfan

Found a piece of the offending cable in my garage, avoid Prysmian cables. 

Posted on: 27 August 2017 by audio1946
Bryce Curdy posted:
audio1946 posted:

one thing that most don't realise is that putting an isolating transformer IN LINE removes the earth from the N

What are the implications of this then?

you have to earth the N on the secondary

Posted on: 28 August 2017 by Blackmorec

To get a clue on how cables affect the sound I bought a couple of Furutech plugs and IEC connectors and made up a few 6' power cables which I first ran in using a fan then ran to my amp. My opinions on the sonic attributes of various mains cable materials is based on those results. What I was looking for was a sonorous, transparent, full bodied sound without any hint of harshness.  I only got this from the stranded cable, Solid core T&E typically took a lot longer to run in and generally sounded more 'technical'.  The fatter the cores, the longer it took to relax and the more technical it sounded. 

Posted on: 28 August 2017 by ChrisSU
Finkfan posted:

Found a piece of the offending cable in my garage, avoid Prysmian cables. 

What's wrong with them?

Posted on: 28 August 2017 by Finkfan

The earth conductor isn't copper, rather a mix of other metals. 

Posted on: 28 August 2017 by ken c
Finkfan posted:

Found a piece of the offending cable in my garage, avoid Prysmian cables. 

i'm curious. what was the problem with Prysmian cable that you found in your garage?

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 28 August 2017 by Finkfan

See my post above Ken. To save money they obviously used an mix of cheaper metals. I'd prefer to stick with good old copper. 

Posted on: 28 August 2017 by ken c
Finkfan posted:

See my post above Ken. To save money they obviously used an mix of cheaper metals. I'd prefer to stick with good old copper. 

i was curious to know what specific symptoms you experienced?

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 28 August 2017 by Finkfan

I'd had 3 10mm raidials run in with an unswitched MK double socket on the end of each. I tried my kit in all the sockets and felt something wasn't right with one of them. I couldn't put my finger on it but the other sockets sounded better. On investigation I found the only difference to be the mains cable feeding the socket which didn't have a copper conductor for the earth. That socket now supplies my Tv/sky etc, though not fed from the dedicated supply. 

Posted on: 28 August 2017 by ken c
Finkfan posted:

I'd had 3 10mm raidials run in with an unswitched MK double socket on the end of each. I tried my kit in all the sockets and felt something wasn't right with one of them. I couldn't put my finger on it but the other sockets sounded better. On investigation I found the only difference to be the mains cable feeding the socket which didn't have a copper conductor for the earth. That socket now supplies my Tv/sky etc, though not fed from the dedicated supply. 

thanks Finfan ... sounds like a definitive test, all else being equal...

enjoy

ken