ND5 XS sounds very "forward"

It won't change significantly after the three weeks. There may be stuff you are not telling us, such as the type of files you are playing. 

Tidal Hifi via Ethernet, Hungryhalibut. 

The nd5 is the only variable

Tidal doesn't sound much good to me, but as you say it's a constant with both sources. I've not heard the Rega dac so it's hard to comment, but it could be that the ND5 is showing music as it is. If you hear a live jazz band it can be pretty harsh at times. Maybe the Rega is smoothing things out and you've just got used to it. Or maybe it's the case that the ND is simply not for you. It won't change things massively but I assume it's sitting on a decent stand. 

Hmm. I have an ND5XS myself, but I currently run it into a DAC - either my nDAC or a Hugo. I don't recall any harshness though when I used it briefly as a standalone. I guess it can sound forward compared to other gear, but it sounds like something could be wrong if voices and the like don't sound human? That's a pretty far way off of musical. 

Some questions to get us acquainted with your setup:

1) What's the rest of the system (other Naim components or different brands?) and how is the ND5 connected to it (via included SNAIC cable)?

2) Is the ground switch on the ND5 set to chassis or floating?

3) Your connection is wired? Is the wireless transmitter still enabled?

4) Is there anything next to it that can generate interference? TV, etc?

5) Is it plugged into the wall or is it plugged into a power strip?

6) Is there anything else feeding into it as a transport? CD player, etc?

I used to have an ND5 XS which I swapped for a NAC N-272. The ND5 always sounded fine to me and I don't recognise at all the description you give of what you are hearing. The 272 was better, but not that much better. If someone told me I had to use a ND5 in future, I wouldn't be that bothered. I wonder whether your ND5 XS is faulty. It should be fine without an external DAC.

But what amplifier are you connecting it to?

best

David

Looking at your profile, i'm wondering if you've just got a bit of a mismatch now with the ND5 and the older 82/Hi/180 Olive kit. When was the Olive kit last serviced ?

Hungryhalibut posted:

Tidal doesn't sound much good to me, but as you say it's a constant with both sources. I've not heard the Rega dac so it's hard to comment, but it could be that the ND5 is showing music as it is. If you hear a live jazz band it can be pretty harsh at times. Maybe the Rega is smoothing things out and you've just got used to it. Or maybe it's the case that the ND is simply not for you. It won't change things massively but I assume it's sitting on a decent stand. 

It's on a decent stand, nothing exotic. It's a sound organisation metal jobbie from last century with glass shelves. 

I previously had a nait  3 converted to a pre driving the 180. I loved the combo, so assumed the addition of better pre & psu would improve it. It certainly got smoother & more detailed. With the nd5 I feel I've lost full bandwidth energy and ended up with emphasis mostly in the upper mids.

The rega is a nice warm dac - smooth but not overly detailed. Given that I love the convenience of the nd5 and the n-stream app, should I be looking at a dac upgrade? Seems a shame given a significant proportion of the nd5's value is in there.

Clemenza posted:

Hmm. I have an ND5XS myself, but I currently run it into a DAC - either my nDAC or a Hugo. I don't recall any harshness though when I used it briefly as a standalone. I guess it can sound forward compared to other gear, but it sounds like something could be wrong if voices and the like don't sound human? That's a pretty far way off of musical. 

Some questions to get us acquainted with your setup:

1) What's the rest of the system (other Naim components or different brands?) and how is the ND5 connected to it (via included SNAIC cable)?

2) Is the ground switch on the ND5 set to chassis or floating?

3) Your connection is wired? Is the wireless transmitter still enabled?

4) Is there anything next to it that can generate interference? TV, etc?

5) Is it plugged into the wall or is it plugged into a power strip?

6) Is there anything else feeding into it as a transport? CD player, etc?

 

Hi Clemenza, I should say voices sound human ok, they're just seem way too emphasised (please excuse my layman's attempts to describe the sound).

1: all naim - nac82, hicap, nap 180. Tdl rtl4 speakers, all naim cabling. Connection is via supplied snaic 

2: I'll have to check that one tomorrow 

3: no

4: it has its own shelf on a rack about 4' from tv

5: all naim stuff into one power strip. All ancillaries ( turntable, network switch, TiVo ) into another

6: yes, TiVo is connected to a spdif optical port

james n posted:

Looking at your profile, i'm wondering if you've just got a bit of a mismatch now with the ND5 and the older 82/Hi/180 Olive kit. When was the Olive kit last serviced ?

Hi James n,

All serviced together within last few months. I would agree my setup is rather eclectic but I like its sound, albeit MacBook Pro-rega as source lacked detail. 

If I could just peg that upper mid back so it matched the rest of the frequency range, I reckon I'd be a happy bunny

David Hendon posted:

I used to have an ND5 XS which I swapped for a NAC N-272. The ND5 always sounded fine to me and I don't recognise at all the description you give of what you are hearing. The 272 was better, but not that much better. If someone told me I had to use a ND5 in future, I wouldn't be that bothered. I wonder whether your ND5 XS is faulty. It should be fine without an external DAC.

But what amplifier are you connecting it to?

best

David

Hi David,

its connected to a nac82, hicap & nap180. Speakers are tdl rtl4's

i was surprised too. I'm a naim user by choice, not habit. I also briefly owned a 272, and this emphasis was not present through the same power amp & speakers, which adds credence to your faulty theory. 

Do you think a dealer would check it if they hadn't sold it?

FWIW - I run a ND5 XS through a NAIT XS 2, I source my music from Tidal and CD's that have been ripped to my NAS, and on the brief occasion listened to internet radio. The ND5 is using Cat5e cable from the router and not wireless.  I find the music to be fantastic and do not have the problems that you describe above. I find the DAC in the ND5 XS not be an issue at all. 

Not much help in answering your questions. Before buying the ND5 XS I did read through the forum threads and asked members their opinions and many reported positive experiences with the ND5 XS. That has been my experience as well. 

Not sure if your speakers (TDL RTL4)  would be impacted sound wise when you started using the ND5 XS but you may want to look at that. I was using ProAc D2 Response's until last week and they sounded wonderful. I had an opportunity to pick a used pair of Ovator S-400 and worked out to be quite an improvement. I also use the Naim NAC A5 speaker cable. 

As far as the dealer selling the ND5 XS. There seem to be a number of users happy with the product. The dealer I buy my equipment does offer home demos, also provides 100% cash back within 7 days, 100% trade in within 30 days, and 80% towards another purchase within one year. So you may want to speak with the dealer and see if you can work something out.

Good luck and hope you find a satisfactory resolution.

Maybe an NDX would be a better match with your 82. My ND5 definitely sounds comparatively harsh into the SN2. 

That may be right. The 82/180 is a revealing amp from a class above the ND5. It would certainly seem a shame to have to add a dac to the ND5: maybe trying an NDX would be a better option.  It's certainly a matter of 'try' not 'buy' as there is no guarantee it will be more satisfactory. When I had an 82/180 I used it with a CDS2 and it sounded excellent. Given that the 272 has been tried I assume it's been discounted as an option. 272/180 would be rather nice. 

Freniq posted:

james n posted:

Looking at your profile, i'm wondering if you've just got a bit of a mismatch now with the ND5 and the older 82/Hi/180 Olive kit. When was the Olive kit last serviced ?

Hi James n,

All serviced together within last few months. I would agree my setup is rather eclectic but I like its sound, albeit MacBook Pro-rega as source lacked detail. 

If I could just peg that upper mid back so it matched the rest of the frequency range, I reckon I'd be a happy bunny

Ah ok. Couple of suggestions then if you can borrow them to try from your dealer - XPS for the ND5 or as suggested above the NDX or 272. Hopefully a bit of time spent with your dealer working through a few combinations will get you straight. 

James

If it's any use I did run a bare NDX into a 82/250 for a couple of years and it was superb no harshness whatsoever.

I used to run a ND5 XS into a Nait XS 2, then I swapped to a 272.  These were run into Spendor SP2s.  These speakers aren't harsh in any way but they are very mid forward.  I didn't have any problem with the ND5 being too mid forward into these speakers, and there was no change to this characteristic with the 272.  It's possible that the sound balance of the ND5 simply doesn't suit your speakers.  There is a lot of detail in the sound presentation of the ND5 XS (at its price point) and this can take quite a bit of acclimatisation if you've previously been used to a smoothed off, more blurred sound with less 'energy' (the Rega DAC perhaps?). 

I can recommend trying an XPS on the ND5, particularly if you can get a s/h DR version; it'll greatly improve the delicacy of presentation and timbral accuracy of instruments - it may be just what you're looking for (or not as the case may be !).

The one thing that did ameliorate the mid forward nature of the speakers was changing the power amp of the Nait XS for a NAP300DR, but that's a huge change and I'd expect a change with that sort of a price jump!

Freniq posted:

It's on a decent stand, nothing exotic. It's a sound organisation metal jobbie from last century with glass shelves. 

I used to have a Sound Organisation table, and found that my system sounded a bit harsh in upper mid/lower treble range. (At the time, I had a Superuniti.) I thought this might be a room issue, and managed to improve it very slightly with speaker positioning, but changing the rack pretty much sorted it. I picked up a used Isoblue for a very reasonable price, and was very surprised at the improvement it gave. 

I am thinking the old TDL RTL4's might be the 'harsh' .............  they are getting a bit old in the tooth, the Vifa tweeters are not the smoothest & the electrolytic caps will more than likely (deffo) out of spec  (irrespective of this test, the caps alone will be a good improvement by replacing with modern film caps).     Any chance of borrowing a decent pair of speakers from someone just to eliminate this,  stand mounts will be OK/good just so long as they have a bit of hifi pedigree.  

Thanks everyone for the input.

So lots of props for the NDX, and I'm sensing a lack of love for my venerable RTL4's. But I love those old wardrobes!

Its very frustrating, cos its so close. John Martyn doing Solid Air is hair-raising, while anything with strong upper mids (ie most contemporary rock) has me diving for the volume control.

I might see if my brother will lend me his MA silver 10's - they're much too big for his house anyway

Mike-B posted:

I am thinking the old TDL RTL4's might be the 'harsh' .............  they are getting a bit old in the tooth, the Vifa tweeters are not the smoothest & the electrolytic caps will more than likely (deffo) out of spec  (irrespective of this test, the caps alone will be a good improvement by replacing with modern film caps).     Any chance of borrowing a decent pair of speakers from someone just to eliminate this,  stand mounts will be OK/good just so long as they have a bit of hifi pedigree.  

I tried a pair of Dynaudio Contour 1.4se's at home and while there was some lovely stuff happening with vocals, I much preferred the smoother, bigger balance of the tdl's. 

I would be very interested in upgrading the tdl's crossover & tweeters - could you recommend anyone who undertakes this kind of thing,  Mike-B (or are you allowed to say on here)

Freniq posted:

I tried a pair of Dynaudio Contour 1.4se's at home and while there was some lovely stuff happening with vocals, I much preferred the smoother, bigger balance of the tdl's. 

I would be very interested in upgrading the tdl's crossover & tweeters - could you recommend anyone who undertakes this kind of thing,  Mike-B (or are you allowed to say on here)

I understand what you mean about the Dyno 1.4se's.  & also the TDL's,  I used to know someone who worked for TDL back in the day & got to hear one of their 'Reference' monsters   .     Maybe the ND5 has disturbed your taste (familiarity) with smoother'ness of the TDL's.

I do all my own electric/electronic fettling,  but I have bought parts & visited Wilmslow Audio the speaker specialists nr Leicester who have a repair & upgrading service -  search that name & give'em a call   

Freniq posted:

 

Do you think a dealer would check it if they hadn't sold it?

I'm sure a Naim dealer would be happy to check it over for you. If they have a demo model, they could compare it to that. If there's a fault that needs fixing, that might cost you, but you'll probably need to get a dealer to do this anyway. 

I'd have thought a dealer would be happy for you to take your ND5 along to compare against their demo model. This would seem the easiest next step to identify whether it's a faulty unit or something else amiss with the system.

sensible idea, back to dealer  I had the 5 ,thought it was alittle bright as well as the ndac too.

@Freniq,

I've heard a variety of levels of Naim streaming gear at dealers and at friends' homes. All decently set-up. My impression was that it tends to be generally mids/vocals forward, more so at increased volumes. Great clarity, but to my ears not without a level of harshness. Some gravitate towards this sonic signature while for others it just doesn't quite work. There may be nothing wrong with your ND5 XS, just that it doesn't meld with your ears and room.