Numpty router question.

I don't follow you, what is your ISP bandwidth 144Mbps or 11/15Mbps? It will be one or the other...

If youvusing the switch in the router to connect your home network together, you will also want to think about the possible throughout on your lan, e.g. If you stream from a NAS to a streamer. You won't need to consider that if you have a separate switch and the audio gear is connected to that.

best

David

When I check the WiFi setting on my mobile device, using the in-house "Settings" app, it says the "speed" is 144Mbps. I understand though, that this measurement is actually the available bandwidth.

When I hit the "Speedtest" app that I loaded in from Google Player, as well as measuring the exterior network ping rate, it tells me my download speed (in this case the word "speed" is used correctly, AFAIK) is usually between 11 and 15Mbps, which is my contracted provision from my WISP.

I guess the question is what exactly to are trying to achieve, and with what?

I notice that if I have something from  the ND5XS running (ethernet-cabled into the router) at the same time as my PC which is wireless connected to it, the ND5XS drops out which is surprising as the PC is using 65Mbps...

Mike1951 posted:

I assume that, given a supplied bandwidth ("speed") of 144Mbps and a download speed of 11 to 15Mbps, upgrading from a router rated at 300Mbps would not deliver any advantage, for instance for more than one device working at a time?

Your download speed is ~11-15 mbps? It is extremely slow. Mine is approaching ~1gbps download speed.

Anyway, a good, high performance router can help with the bandwidth for both upload and download, plus it will fix some bugs with your current router (which you may or may not know).

In your case, the streamer and the PC both share the same bandwidth, so a low performance will impact the music stream quality.

But I will check the ISP to see what kind of bandwidth that they are providing, sometimes they put a cap on it unless you pay extra.

Mike1951 posted:

When I check the WiFi setting on my mobile device, using the in-house "Settings" app, it says the "speed" is 144Mbps. I understand though, that this measurement is actually the available bandwidth.

When I hit the "Speedtest" app that I loaded in from Google Player, as well as measuring the exterior network ping rate, it tells me my download speed (in this case the word "speed" is used correctly, AFAIK) is usually between 11 and 15Mbps, which is my contracted provision from my WISP.

As HH says it depends what you wanting to do, 10/15Mbps ISP broadband speed is plenty fast enough for most online services lossless.

Your wifi 'speed' is the speed of your local wireless network, and 144 Mbps is fast enough for all Naim streamer capabilities.

So if you are getting 'drop out'.. please describe when and what you ate doing...

if for lunch cal streaming your media server is best Ethernet connected to the switchports on your router. If you are getting dropouts on Tidal , then this can be latency related and not linked to broadband 'speed'. Work around are to change timing dynamics, i.e. Use wifi if you were using Ethernet or vica versa. You could also contact Naim to see if they have a later firmware for you.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

As HH says it depends what you wanting to do, 10/15Mbps ISP broadband speed is plenty fast enough for most online services lossless.

Your wifi 'speed' is the speed of your local wireless network, and 144 Mbps is fast enough for all Naim streamer capabilities.

 

10/15 mbps internet broadband is plenty if the OP only uses it for Tidal streaming, if someone in his house playing online games or watching HD movies then it is obviously not enough.

The local wireless speed is only relative to in-house networking, if that wireless device playing internet music or watching Netflix, then it is limited by 10/15 mbps, which seems extremely slow by today's standard, it seems more like ASDL to me.

So I've powered down and completely disconnected all the NAIM boxes and have the telly running. It's using a wireless connection from the router and I'm casting from a TV app on my mobile device. No dropout.

It seems then, that the problem only manifests when I have the ND5XS powered up and connected to the router.

There seems some basic incompatibility issue here. What could it be?

Mike1951 posted:

So I've powered down and completely disconnected all the NAIM boxes and have the telly running. It's using a wireless connection from the router and I'm casting from a TV app on my mobile device. No dropout.

It seems then, that the problem only manifests when I have the ND5XS powered up and connected to the router.

There seems some basic incompatibility issue here. What could it be?

Are you talking about web based streaming here (Tidal, iRadio etc.) or local streaming from a NAS or computer? Either way, bandwidth alone is not the issue, you have plenty. If your issue is with Tidal, I would suspect latency in your WISP service might be the problem.

Mike,

I can't provide any technical expertise on this but do the drop outs occur if streaming for a NAS/PC or an online service or both?

BN

The dopouts occur when the ND5XS is plugged into the local (room) network, whether I'm streaming from the router or not - ie: watching the TV, where the only thing the ND5XS is doing is relaying the audio signal from the telly.

Just had a word with Hometech in Malaga. He reckons it might be something to do with the fact that the router is linked to a modem, meaning that effectively there's two routers in the chain and that might be setting up a conflict of some sort...

Mike1951 posted:

Just had a word with Hometech in Malaga. He reckons it might be something to do with the fact that the router is linked to a modem, meaning that effectively there's two routers in the chain and that might be setting up a conflict of some sort...

Hi,

If your router requires a separate modem (and the modem is a modem and not a router in itself) then there should be no issues ... (What most people refer to generically as a router is actually much more - it is normally a router / modem / wireless access point / DHCP server / firewall etc. at least and often much more.)

Ultimately WiFi is not a technology that can be guaranteed as reliable and when you are using WiFi to connect multiple devices to a single wireless network they not only share that available 144Mbits of bandwidth that you say that you have (in reality it is likely that that is your reported connection speed rather than the real-world physically available bandwidth) but they are also likely to conflict to a degree as WiFi has no co-operative negotiation as to which devices can have exclusive bandwidth and access to the WiFi network at any particular time.

If you are having issues with devices connected to your WiFi network either dropping connections or having glitchy playback then a long Ethernet lead or two can be of great use when trying to diagnose such issues.

Best Regards

Phil Harris

Thanks Phil but all I am trying to do is use either the ND5XS to stream a single service, either Tidal or internet radio. There's no multiple device bandwidth eating going on. Dropout also occurs when all the streamer is doing is relaying the TV audio.

With all the NAIM gear removed, the TV just keeps going without any dropouts.

It seems logical to suppose therefore, that there is some sort of incompatibility with the signal path setup as soon as the ND5XS  is linked in to it.

The question remains - what is it and how can it be cured?

Hometech's modem/router dissonance seems to be the likeliest hypothesis so far so I will tell the local WISP tech when I talk to him later today.

What Phil is suggesting that if you connect things temporarily with long ethernet cables instead of wifi, it does enable you to know whether the fact you are using wifi is contributing to the problem or not. You can buy them very cheaply from multiple suppliers on eBay for example.

best

David

Mike1951 posted:

Thanks Phil but all I am trying to do is use either the ND5XS to stream a single service, either Tidal or internet radio. There's no multiple device bandwidth eating going on. Dropout also occurs when all the streamer is doing is relaying the TV audio.

How is the TV audio being "relayed" to the ND5XS though?

Mike1951 posted:

With all the NAIM gear removed, the TV just keeps going without any dropouts.

What source is the TV being driven from?

Mike1951 posted:

It seems logical to suppose therefore, that there is some sort of incompatibility with the signal path setup as soon as the ND5XS  is linked in to it.

Possibly but not from what I've read so far here so I think we need more information regarding the setup before that conclusion can be reached ...

Mike1951 posted:

The question remains - what is it and how can it be cured?

That depends on what the problem actually is and what is causing it...

Mike1951 posted:

Hometech's modem/router dissonance seems to be the likeliest hypothesis so far so I will tell the local WISP tech when I talk to him later today.

Please see my previous reply regarding separate modems and routers - some ISPs supply separate modems and routers and if they are set up correctly then there should be no issues using a "router inside a router" (or even two routers on the same network if what you are wanting to do is segragate two networks or create an isolated network) ...

Phil

The TV audio is relayed via an optic cable audio out.

The TV is linked to the router wirelessly and is driven via either a) chromecast for Google app or b) inbuilt casting software for "filmon.tv" app.

Yes, I think the tech needs to check the link is set up correctly. 

Hometech also suggested that I check if there is dropout when running the ND5XS with the TV unplugged as well with the reverse arrangement, which I'm doing now...

So... ran the ND5XS with the TV unplugged for 5 hours. Internet radio/Tidal no problem. 

Plugged in the telly. Closed the NAIM app. Switched on telly and kicked in the "filmon.tv" app. Selected news channel. Dropout after an hour and fifteen minutes.

Mike1951 posted:

Just had a word with Hometech in Malaga. He reckons it might be something to do with the fact that the router is linked to a modem, meaning that effectively there's two routers in the chain and that might be setting up a conflict of some sort...

No, not relevant, a modem is NOT a router, a modem is simply a transcoder to allow the different low level protocols and physical presentations  to interconnect, such as PPPoverATM via ADSL2 into a PPPoverEthernet connection for your router. The router does quite different things.. it connects two different networks together using the data's transport layer... if there was a routing an issue you wouldn't be able to reach the internet at all. 

To have multiple routers on a network requires careful set up and requires the use of routing protocols or static routes to be configured... additionally 'helpers' need to be setup on managed router to allow DHCP, multicast etc to work between networks... so unless you really know what you are doing don't use multiple routers on your home network.. and to be honest you are unlikely to be doing this...

As far as your dropouts... did you say you get dropouts from your TV to your streamer? If so how are you connecting....

Mike1951 posted:

So... ran the ND5XS with the TV unplugged for 5 hours. Internet radio/Tidal no problem. 

Plugged in the telly. Closed the NAIM app. Switched on telly and kicked in the "filmon.tv" app. Selected news channel. Dropout after an hour and fifteen minutes.

 

Interesting. I reckon you should get an Ethernet cable and just run it between your ND5- XS and your router. You don't need to hide it or worry about cable dressing or anything. That should take the pressure off the wifi and if it doesn't help, well that's useful info too.

best

David

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Mike1951 posted:

Just had a word with Hometech in Malaga. He reckons it might be something to do with the fact that the router is linked to a modem, meaning that effectively there's two routers in the chain and that might be setting up a conflict of some sort...

No, not relevant, a modem is NOT a router, a modem is simply a transcoder to allow the different low level protocols and physical presentations  to interconnect, such as PPPoverATM via ADSL2 into a PPPoverEthernet connection for your router. The router does quite different things.. it connects two different networks together using the data's transport layer... if there was a routing an issue you wouldn't be able to reach the internet at all. 

To have multiple routers on a network requires careful set up and requires the use of routing protocols or static routes to be configured... additionally 'helpers' need to be setup on managed router to allow DHCP, multicast etc to work between networks... so unless you really know what you are doing don't use multiple routers on your home network.. and to be honest you are unlikely to be doing this...

As far as your dropouts... did you say you get dropouts from your TV to your streamer? If so how are you connecting....

He said it was a fibre optic cable from TV to ND5, so the dropouts must be on the TV signal which is being streamed by wifi from the router I think....

Well, had another word with Hometech and he suggested that the router might be struggling with my eth cable connection to the streamer but a wireless connection to the telly.

He suggested that I cable-up the router to the telly as well so I have....

So far so good.

So both the streamer and the telly are hard-wired to the router and you are good?

Yes, if the dropout is from the TV, improve the TV signal... and if internet TV then best use Ethernet unless you have confirmed good wifi... but I would expect picture pixelation if there was sound drop out.

S