272 or 282 that is the question?

Before you give your dealer any of your hard-earned cash, ask him to look at your setup and make sure it's optimised, as it sounds like it isn't performing as it should. Looking at your setup in system pics, it looks like you have the preamp sitting directly on top of the power amp, which is not good. The preamp really needs to be kept away from PSUs and power amps, and on its own shelf. Get everything serviced and set up optimally, and you may find you don't need to spend any money on new boxes.

If you want to add streaming to your system, I would keep what you've got and add an NDX. To my ears, that is a substantial improvement on a 272. Swapping the 202 for a 282 is certainly a nice upgrade, but your system should still sound great with a 202.

What was the last decent configuration, for reference?

Nick

Just for sh--ts and giggles, audition a 250-2 DR, or a SN2. Trust me on this!!!!! Please. 

Forget the 272, the streamer platform is dated in naim world. Limitations abound when it come to new features. AirPlay and google cast is missing and I doubt Roon will ever see the light on this platform. 

ChrisSU posted:

Looking at your setup in system pics, it looks like you have the preamp sitting directly on top of the power amp, which is not good. The preamp really needs to be kept away from PSUs and power amps, and on its own shelf.

 

It is now, top to bottom it is now LP12, 202, Lingo and then Nap200 on the bottom shelf. Hicap is on the left hand Qube, Stageline right hand Qube and NAPSC on the floor behind the left speaker.

NickSeattle posted:

What was the last decent configuration, for reference?

Nick

Actually I think it was before adding the HICAP DR. Might have to have a play and swap the DR for the non DR but the difference is slight IIRC.

badlands posted:

Just for sh--ts and giggles, audition a 250-2 DR, or a SN2. Trust me on this!!!!! Please. 

Oddly enough I was toying with the idea of a SN, but thought the separates route would be better sounding. Upgrade path from SN leads you back to separates, that said it looks like the SN has a pretty good pre amp section so maybe worth a punt. Think they have one I could "borrow" for comparison purposes of course. Only real issue is that my speakers are not Bi-wirable so would be no point in keeping the 200. 

kaydee6 posted:

Forget the 272, the streamer platform is dated in naim world. Limitations abound when it come to new features. AirPlay and google cast is missing and I doubt Roon will ever see the light on this platform. 

I wouldn't buy a 272 either, but not for that reason. Airplay isn't a new feature, it was developed by Apple in 2004, predating the first Naim streamer by 6 years. As for Google Cast and Roon, they just add functionality which personally, I don't need - nothing to do with sound quality.

Mikie711 posted:

badlands posted:

Just for sh--ts and giggles, audition a 250-2 DR, or a SN2. Trust me on this!!!!! Please. 

Oddly enough I was toying with the idea of a SN, but thought the separates route would be better sounding. Upgrade path from SN leads you back to separates, that said it looks like the SN has a pretty good pre amp section so maybe worth a punt. Think they have one I could "borrow" for comparison purposes of course.

The SN2 is a great amp, but personally I prefer the 202/200, especially with Hicap DR and NAPSC. Trust only your own ears on this! The 250DR is great too, but I would only consider it after getting a 282. 

I see your source is a turntable. You don't have digital source. I am not sure if the source is the problem to the less-than-stellar performance you are experiencing right now. In my experience the 202/200/HicapDR/NAPSC is far from muddy. As a matter of fact some find the 202/200 to be too detailed and analytical which are the opposites of muddy.

Another possibility is the NAP 200 may not be sufficient for the Dynaudio floorstanders and is the culprit to the muddiness if your room is large and listening levels are moderate to high.

You have a fabulous front end.  The system should sound like dynamite if set up correctly.  Get a dealer that knows his stuff to diagnose any existing issues and set up your system properly before you start throwing money at it.

I believe Ryder is correct, I have the Dynaudio X38's, they do better with the additional power of the SN2 or a 250-2. I recently did a home audition of this very system, the SN2 was superior to the 200-202 combo with these speakers, especially with the HiCap DR connected to the SN2, it completely put the separate combo to shame. At least it did in my room with my speakers. Please, if you can, try the SN2 with the HiCap DR, or slip the 250-2 DR into your system.

Not only does the SN2 have the DR preamp, it can swing much more current than the 200, and is rated at 80 watts, same as the 250-2 DR.

kaydee6 posted:

Forget the 272, the streamer platform is dated in naim world. Limitations abound when it come to new features. AirPlay and google cast is missing and I doubt Roon will ever see the light on this platform. 

airplay and google cast....

how relevant are they for a hifi streamer?  Roon maybe..... but i don't see any room on Atom Nova as well....

I play all my music trough my app from my NAS and use Tidal... ok i have some drop outs and the app is not the best but they are not hardware related at all....  look how many problems Atom users are having. 

So if you consider a green screen dated yes but other than that i don't see any new technology around that offers anything new....

neither 282 or 272 is required.

When Cymbiosis demonstrate Naim (maybe with LP12) at entry level they use 202/200

I have many years experience with 202/200.

Dynaudio Excite series isn't particularly difficult to drive as it presents stable 4 ohm load to amp, and has impedance correcting circuits.

Which speaker cables are you using?

Which interconnects?

since your 202/200 system is second hand, where did you buy it from? Was it a dealer?

and last but not least, it's a common mistake to get the polarity on NACA5 wrong, since it is not color coded on the amp side

Before throwing money at the problem, get your dealer round to listen to the system and check your setup. You say that the problems started when you added the hicap DR, which suggests an easy solution....... Remember also that these systems are highly sensitive to setting up. Both the LP12 and the Naim boxes require good stands and can sound really bad if located on something incompatible. Your pictures suggest that this may be an issue. The other thing that strikes me is that the speakers may benefit from more welly to get them zipping along, which may well be a 250DR. But then you'd want a better preamp, which is where you started. As I said, get your dealer round. 

analogmusic posted:

....and last but not least, it's a common mistake to get the polarity on NACA5 wrong, since it is not color coded on the amp side

Quite right, it's not colour coded. But there is ribbing down one edge of NACA5 cable. I put the ribbed side on the red. Arrows on the wires point away from the amplifier towards the loudspeakers.

kaydee6 posted:

Forget the 272, the streamer platform is dated in naim world. Limitations abound when it come to new features. AirPlay and google cast is missing and I doubt Roon will ever see the light on this platform. 

Forget having to have Airplay and Chromecast natively (it already supports BT aptX).

A Chromecast Audio is £30 + an optical fibre.
An Airport Express is £80 + an optical fibre.

No big deal really.

Wait for the audition, if the dealer's NAC202 and NAC-N272 both sound non-muddy, then clearly the problem isn't the preamp.  Then you can look elsewhere.

Prime candidates are...

1  System set-up (LP12s can be tricky and easily mucked up), and Naim components can be a little picky as well, both together...  well?

2  The HiCap DR in the audio chain (i.e. the pone powering the preamp) or a problem with the cables you are using (particularly the SNAIC5)

3  The power amp struggling with the Dynaudio Speakers (some Dynaudio models require a lot of current drive to make them work well).

Huge posted:

2  The HiCap DR in the audio chain (i.e. the pone powering the preamp) or a problem with the cables you are using (particularly the SNAIC5)

 

In my case the HiCap DR made my SN1 preamp section sound clear and transparent instead of 'muddy'. I love the SN1 in both ways. The Snaic 5 is indeed a riskful (HH, mind the single 'l') component. I had it by accident close to a powersupply of a router and causing all kind of distortion.

I agree with others to get your dealer home to do a proper set up and listen again. He should be getting this kit to sound pretty good as it is, and only then consider upgrades or fixes.

Personally, I would be happy to pay a fee for this service unless you have purchased either Naim or Linn bits recently. Others may not agree. What is your relationship like with your dealer?

Stu

analogmusic posted:

neither 282 or 272 is required.

When Cymbiosis demonstrate Naim (maybe with LP12) at entry level they use 202/200

I have many years experience with 202/200.

Dynaudio Excite series isn't particularly difficult to drive as it presents stable 4 ohm load to amp, and has impedance correcting circuits.

Which speaker cables are you using?

Which interconnects?

since your 202/200 system is second hand, where did you buy it from? Was it a dealer?

and last but not least, it's a common mistake to get the polarity on NACA5 wrong, since it is not color coded on the amp side

 

A5 speaker cable, Naim Snaic, various dealers and one guy off a forum for the NAP200.  The speaker cable has coloured plugs and the arrow is pointing away from the amp. You are correct the X38's are not particularly hard to drive. My previous amp, Rega Elex-R managed no problem. 

So, this morning I swapped out the Hicap DR for the non DR version and it seems to sounds much better. Early days as I have only played a couple of Albums but so far so good.

So looks like there is an issue with the Hicap DR. Will give the dealer I got it from a call and see what they say but the system is much better without it which I am guessing shouldn't be the case.

We have very similar set ups Mike I went from 202/200 to 282/200 and then 282/250-2 as everyone has said your system shouldn't sound muddy.  Looking at your system pics I would certainly get that LP12 up on a wall shelf I got mine from Custom Design for about 150 but of course there are others and Quadraspire do one to match your rack.

Again I would if you haven't already seperate the 202 and the 200 I had a similar problem when I had my old rack and I put the 200 on a DIY isolation shelf on the floor underneath the bottom shelf again this really helped.

Have you tried the Dynaudios with bungs in and bungs out and messed around with placement a bit.

The most frustrating thing about expensive gear is that it is very sensitive to all sorts of things get it right and it sounds great wrong and it sounds average. This can be annoying when a bog standard hifi can just be thrown together and sound ok and because you are not expecting a WOW factor ok sounds pretty good.

Even after all this it could be that the Naim sound just doesn't suit you, Naim Audio could never be accused of producing forensic sounding amps and many people who prefer a warmer sound or a more crystal clear sound find Naim amps no to their taste.  

Good luck Mike but I would reiterate sort out your present set up before you through anymore money at it.

Quick update, few more albums in and now that the Hicap is warming up it's sounding better and better. Clarity and separation are present and maintains a cohesive sound at all volume levels. My go to album is ELO's out of the blue, a particularly good pressing I have, and it sounds amazing. Individual instruments clearly identifiable and some I haven't noticed before. 

The original question still stands however, although to be honest I think it has been answered. So the hunt for a 282 begins although I am in no hurry now to change anything. Still need a streamer however as I think my Cabase Soundstream is out of it's league now.

Mikie711 posted:

Quick update, few more albums in and now that the Hicap is warming up it's sounding better and better. Clarity and separation are present and maintains a cohesive sound at all volume levels. My go to album is ELO's out of the blue, a particularly good pressing I have, and it sounds amazing. Individual instruments clearly identifiable and some I haven't noticed before. 

The original question still stands however, although to be honest I think it has been answered. So the hunt for a 282 begins although I am in no hurry now to change anything. Still need a streamer however as I think my Cabase Soundstream is out of it's league now.

Is this having the Hicap DR completely swapped out, or the Hicap DR on the Stageline and the normal Hicap on the Preamp?

Mikie711 posted:

Quick update, few more albums in and now that the Hicap is warming up it's sounding better and better. Clarity and separation are present and maintains a cohesive sound at all volume levels. My go to album is ELO's out of the blue, a particularly good pressing I have, and it sounds amazing. Individual instruments clearly identifiable and some I haven't noticed before. 

The original question still stands however, although to be honest I think it has been answered. So the hunt for a 282 begins although I am in no hurry now to change anything. Still need a streamer however as I think my Cabase Soundstream is out of it's league now.

Wow! Burn in!

If you weren't a believer before, you are a now!

Enjoy Your Music, The Why!

Allante93!

PS. Nice looking Speakers!

One can't over emphasise

the importance of System Set-up!

I have removed the Hicap DR completely from the system. I have a non DR Hicap which I did originally have for powering the stageline but took it off when I first got the DR as it sounded rubbish. It is definitely 100% a faulty Hicap DR no doubt about it now.  Currently listening to Pink Floyd The Wall and you would not believe the difference between the 2 Hicaps. 

As the Hicap settles in, it's been switched off for the better part of a week, it's just getting better and better. 

So after a rocky start with this system that was supposed to be a big step up I have to admit I was close to sticking it all on Ebay and going back to my Rega. I was beginning to wonder if all Naim listeners where wired completely differently to the rest of us as once plugged in this gear sound very Meh.

Fast forward a week and after identifying a faulty Hicap you can now count me as a convert. 

Thanks all for your help