Naim Uniti Core, HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro, Allo DigiOne and SPDIF DACs

Ardbeg10y posted:

What I don't like to the Naim streamers, and streamers in general, is that the streamer sections age quickly. In a few years, it is likely that the current streamers can't be used anymore, or can't use the latest inventions of the market.

I'm fine on the good old classical Pre amp, I believe that Dacs are also quite safe (the trick which they apply currently is to increase the number of taps by better / faster IC's) and Dac are stronger reliant on the analogue stage than we think.

My problem is with the streamer section.

Therefore I've bought the DigiOne / Raspberry. I tend to believe that this last longer, or if it does not last longer, it is only $200.

My thoughts exactly, hence sold my ND5XS  I can see a lot of outdated streaming units in years to come as the technology moves so fast... Doesn't seem wise to put all your eggs in one basket?

Thanks for your post, interesting reading. May have to pick your brain about the Allo digione player if I get stuck 

cheers!

In fact, I've meaning to post recently that the optimal value for money system for myself would be a digital preamp at the level of nDAC, combined with a used NAP250. Pretty much a 272 without streamer but with a reference DAC. Ideal source something along the lines of Allo DigiOne.

Unfortunately if/when that ever comes, it will be with the new box design, so I am stuck with the current offering. Maybe nDAC / SuperNAIT 2 will be the end system for my modest aspirations...

BTW, for now I have RPi3/Hifiberry Digi+ -> Cambridge DacMagic 100 -> Nait XS/FlatCap XS -> Dynaudio X36

sihctr posted:

In fact, I've meaning to post recently that the optimal value for money system for myself would be a digital preamp at the level of nDAC, combined with a used NAP250. Pretty much a 272 without streamer but with a reference DAC. Ideal source something along the lines of Allo DigiOne.

Chord Hugo 2, TT and, of course, the mighty Dave.  

Timo posted:

sihctr posted:

In fact, I've meaning to post recently that the optimal value for money system for myself would be a digital preamp at the level of nDAC, combined with a used NAP250. Pretty much a 272 without streamer but with a reference DAC. Ideal source something along the lines of Allo DigiOne.

Chord Hugo 2, TT and, of course, the mighty Dave.  

Indeed, but I don't like these bloody things! (not to mention SWMBO) And not sure if that remains value for money.

And not sure if my OCD-self will be happy without a proper multibit DAC (that rules 272 out I guess..)

Ahhh, life is so tough sometimes!

Update:

Today I disconnected the DigiOne from my RPi3 and sent it back: it has a grounding problem and Allo will send me a new device.

I have not used the DigiOne lately. Since my last post on this thread, I had reverted to my default source: a fitPC3 connected to the Naim DAC through a M2Tech hiFace Evo USB interface. Both the fitPC3 and the M2Tech are powered by TP power supplies. 

I have a HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro that I had not tried so far: those who have compared it to the Allo have all found the latter to sound better. With the DigiOne on its way to France, I decided to give the HiFiBerry a try.

My first impression is that I can hardly distinguish the HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro from my default fitPC3+M2Tech+TP PSUs! Violins are not as harsh as with the DigiOne, the presentation is perhaps a little bit less engaging. I will run further tests but, so far, I am very pleased with the HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro.

The next steps are to try the DigiOne replacement (it is possible that the grounding problem had a negative effect on the sound quality) and, perhaps, a new USB to SPDIF interface. I have bought a second Naim DC1 and a second Supra USB cable. Thus, I should be able to compare my M2Tech to a Mutec MC-3+ USB or to a Schiit Eitr in a consistent fashion.

Ardbeg10y posted:

Singlespeed posted:

Thanks ARDBEG10Y, already have the flashback cable (think we may have discussed this in another thread?) Went with Volumio OS, looking forward to some tinkering with it once it arrives! Have you owned Naim streamers? would like to hear some comparisons against the Digione...

Indeed. My mind is messy when it comes to what was discussed with whom.

I have no Naim streamer currently. I do want to buy one, and I don't want to buy one. It's complicated.

Lets put it this way:

I bought a classy house 2.5 years ago to live in with my family until I die. When we moved in the house, the previous owners left their loudspeakercable since it was in-wall. So I put my Technics midfi all in one amp and speaker in the livingroom and alas, the room was too large to listen to decent music. So, I thought I need new loudspeakers (quite amateurish looking backwards) and I purchased BW CM1's because they fit exactly in the bookshelves. Then the CD Player of my Technics amp died. I decided that I need a good amp and a good cd player. I started to search which brands did still produce in Europe, I made an appointment with a Naim dealer and there was my dealer supplied Supernait and CD5i.

Finally music. I never thought that such music was possible in a normal house, I thought it was only possible in Churches, Concerthalls etc ...

Upgraditis bit me and I bought a Naim set for my TV. AV2 + Nait 5 driving BW CM5's. Performs again well.

Since I work mostly at home - software engineering or so - I needed a set for my office too. Bought Active Ovators and 2xNap 200.

I temporarily shifted my AV2 to the office, but clearly the AV2 is insufficient.

So I need a good Pre for the office to drive the Snaxo / Nap200s / Ovators.

I'm reluctant to buy a 202 / 282 because it's the pre only and they need powersupplies too. 252 / 552 is too expensive for me currently - well we could buy it but we have expensive years ahead. So I came to the conclusion that a Nac 272 is the answer to everything.

I'm likely to buy a Nac 272 next year and use it as a pre / dac fed by the DigiOne player. Normal spotify playback can be done using the Nac 272 directly.

This is all fine.

What I don't like to the Naim streamers, and streamers in general, is that the streamer sections age quickly. In a few years, it is likely that the current streamers can't be used anymore, or can't use the latest inventions of the market.

I'm fine on the good old classical Pre amp, I believe that Dacs are also quite safe (the trick which they apply currently is to increase the number of taps by better / faster IC's) and Dac are stronger reliant on the analogue stage than we think.

My problem is with the streamer section.

Therefore I've bought the DigiOne / Raspberry. I tend to believe that this last longer, or if it does not last longer, it is only $200.

To implement a streaming solution, you do not need to buy a streamer. Buy a good DAC and a network player like the microRendu, the sMS-200, the ultraRendu or the sMS-200ultra. Or simply setup a Raspberry Pi (or any other decent low-power SBC) to act as a network player.

Be interesting to hear your findings NBPF. If the grounding issue was always there then maybe you have a better sounding Digione to look forward to!? 

nbpf posted:

 

To implement a streaming solution, you do not need to buy a streamer. Buy a good DAC and a network player like the microRendu, the sMS-200, the ultraRendu or the sMS-200ultra. Or simply setup a Raspberry Pi (or any other decent low-power SBC) to act as a network player.

However, there have been a number of claims that RPi set up as a renderer doesn’t sound as good as other options. That suggests that it may be best limited to being a file server to the likes of mIcroRendu. The difficulty in all this is trying to get comparisons to common reference points such as the Naim streamers or Melco etc as players.

Innocent Bystander posted:

nbpf posted:

 

To implement a streaming solution, you do not need to buy a streamer. Buy a good DAC and a network player like the microRendu, the sMS-200, the ultraRendu or the sMS-200ultra. Or simply setup a Raspberry Pi (or any other decent low-power SBC) to act as a network player.

However, there have been a number of claims that RPi set up as a renderer doesn’t sound as good as other options. That suggests that it may be best limited to being a file server to the likes of mIcroRendu. The difficulty in all this is trying to get comparisons to common reference points such as the Naim streamers or Melco etc as players.

Yes, it would be nice to have some comprehensive comparisons. Since we are in a Naim forum, we could start by comparing the Core's SPDIF output to the SPDIF output of the Allo DigiOne and of the HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro. Functionwise (and letting apart ripping) these devices are equivalent. Thus, a comparison would make sense.

I know that the RPi's USB output is considered by many reviewers to be particularly bad. J. H. Darko, for instance, seems to put the RPi3’s stock USB output at 1 on a scale of 10. On such a scale, he would put the Macbook Air at 2 and the dCS Network Bridge at 10. The Allo DigiOne would be at about 4. On the other hand, Archimago's measurements suggest that the RPi's USB output is neither better nor worse than the USB outputs of other computers.

If one starts with a USB DAC like for instance the Schiit YGGDRASIL, comparing a dedicated network player, say the ultraRendu, to a RPi-based renderer is not very difficult. But if one has a DAC with only SPDIF inputs, things become more difficult because one needs to insert a USB to SPDIF interface between the renderer and the DAC. Some USB to SPDIF interfaces seems to be quite good at isolating and clocking a USB stream. It is conceivable that, with a good USB to SPDIF interface, the difference between dedicated network players and  RPi-based renderers becomes less substantial. Of course, one would expect a ultraRendu to sound better than an RPi-based renderer even with a very good USB to SPDIF interface downstream.

If one decides to separate server and renderer and buys a microRendu, a sMS-200, an ultraRendu or a sMS-200ultra, it is probably meaningful to have these devices directly connected to the server (without a switch in between) as suggested in the monster CA thread "A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming". This requires the server to have a network interface configured as an access point which seems to be what dedicated devices like the Melco typically offer.

Singlespeed posted:

Be interesting to hear your findings NBPF. If the grounding issue was always there then maybe you have a better sounding Digione to look forward to!? 

That's what I hope but I frankly doubt that the DigiOne replacement will be better sound quality wise. As far as I understand (see the "Allo DigiOne: no sound after cable change or amp switch" thread on the Volumio forum) the grounding problem was there from the very beginning and affects all the DigiOne devices that were shipped before the end of November. The new devices apparently avoid the problems reported in the Volumio thread at the expense of being marginally more noisy than the original model. I will test my DigiOne replacement and report back in this forum.

I'm going from ND5XS

to ND5XS>>SPdif>>Mojo (which I preferred)

to Digione>>SPdif>>mojo

So will be interesting to hear the differences...

Your feedback is appreciated, NBPF.

nbpf posted:

Ardbeg10y posted:

Singlespeed posted:

Thanks ARDBEG10Y, already have the flashback cable (think we may have discussed this in another thread?) Went with Volumio OS, looking forward to some tinkering with it once it arrives! Have you owned Naim streamers? would like to hear some comparisons against the Digione...

Indeed. My mind is messy when it comes to what was discussed with whom.

I have no Naim streamer currently. I do want to buy one, and I don't want to buy one. It's complicated.

Lets put it this way:

I bought a classy house 2.5 years ago to live in with my family until I die. When we moved in the house, the previous owners left their loudspeakercable since it was in-wall. So I put my Technics midfi all in one amp and speaker in the livingroom and alas, the room was too large to listen to decent music. So, I thought I need new loudspeakers (quite amateurish looking backwards) and I purchased BW CM1's because they fit exactly in the bookshelves. Then the CD Player of my Technics amp died. I decided that I need a good amp and a good cd player. I started to search which brands did still produce in Europe, I made an appointment with a Naim dealer and there was my dealer supplied Supernait and CD5i.

Finally music. I never thought that such music was possible in a normal house, I thought it was only possible in Churches, Concerthalls etc ...

Upgraditis bit me and I bought a Naim set for my TV. AV2 + Nait 5 driving BW CM5's. Performs again well.

Since I work mostly at home - software engineering or so - I needed a set for my office too. Bought Active Ovators and 2xNap 200.

I temporarily shifted my AV2 to the office, but clearly the AV2 is insufficient.

So I need a good Pre for the office to drive the Snaxo / Nap200s / Ovators.

I'm reluctant to buy a 202 / 282 because it's the pre only and they need powersupplies too. 252 / 552 is too expensive for me currently - well we could buy it but we have expensive years ahead. So I came to the conclusion that a Nac 272 is the answer to everything.

I'm likely to buy a Nac 272 next year and use it as a pre / dac fed by the DigiOne player. Normal spotify playback can be done using the Nac 272 directly.

This is all fine.

What I don't like to the Naim streamers, and streamers in general, is that the streamer sections age quickly. In a few years, it is likely that the current streamers can't be used anymore, or can't use the latest inventions of the market.

I'm fine on the good old classical Pre amp, I believe that Dacs are also quite safe (the trick which they apply currently is to increase the number of taps by better / faster IC's) and Dac are stronger reliant on the analogue stage than we think.

My problem is with the streamer section.

Therefore I've bought the DigiOne / Raspberry. I tend to believe that this last longer, or if it does not last longer, it is only $200.

To implement a streaming solution, you do not need to buy a streamer. Buy a good DAC and a network player like the microRendu, the sMS-200, the ultraRendu or the sMS-200ultra. Or simply setup a Raspberry Pi (or any other decent low-power SBC) to act as a network player.

Correct, but I am still in the need for a good Pre.

Ardbeg10y posted:

nbpf posted:

Ardbeg10y posted:

Singlespeed posted:

Thanks ARDBEG10Y, already have the flashback cable (think we may have discussed this in another thread?) Went with Volumio OS, looking forward to some tinkering with it once it arrives! Have you owned Naim streamers? would like to hear some comparisons against the Digione...

Indeed. My mind is messy when it comes to what was discussed with whom.

I have no Naim streamer currently. I do want to buy one, and I don't want to buy one. It's complicated.

Lets put it this way:

I bought a classy house 2.5 years ago to live in with my family until I die. When we moved in the house, the previous owners left their loudspeakercable since it was in-wall. So I put my Technics midfi all in one amp and speaker in the livingroom and alas, the room was too large to listen to decent music. So, I thought I need new loudspeakers (quite amateurish looking backwards) and I purchased BW CM1's because they fit exactly in the bookshelves. Then the CD Player of my Technics amp died. I decided that I need a good amp and a good cd player. I started to search which brands did still produce in Europe, I made an appointment with a Naim dealer and there was my dealer supplied Supernait and CD5i.

Finally music. I never thought that such music was possible in a normal house, I thought it was only possible in Churches, Concerthalls etc ...

Upgraditis bit me and I bought a Naim set for my TV. AV2 + Nait 5 driving BW CM5's. Performs again well.

Since I work mostly at home - software engineering or so - I needed a set for my office too. Bought Active Ovators and 2xNap 200.

I temporarily shifted my AV2 to the office, but clearly the AV2 is insufficient.

So I need a good Pre for the office to drive the Snaxo / Nap200s / Ovators.

I'm reluctant to buy a 202 / 282 because it's the pre only and they need powersupplies too. 252 / 552 is too expensive for me currently - well we could buy it but we have expensive years ahead. So I came to the conclusion that a Nac 272 is the answer to everything.

I'm likely to buy a Nac 272 next year and use it as a pre / dac fed by the DigiOne player. Normal spotify playback can be done using the Nac 272 directly.

This is all fine.

What I don't like to the Naim streamers, and streamers in general, is that the streamer sections age quickly. In a few years, it is likely that the current streamers can't be used anymore, or can't use the latest inventions of the market.

I'm fine on the good old classical Pre amp, I believe that Dacs are also quite safe (the trick which they apply currently is to increase the number of taps by better / faster IC's) and Dac are stronger reliant on the analogue stage than we think.

My problem is with the streamer section.

Therefore I've bought the DigiOne / Raspberry. I tend to believe that this last longer, or if it does not last longer, it is only $200.

To implement a streaming solution, you do not need to buy a streamer. Buy a good DAC and a network player like the microRendu, the sMS-200, the ultraRendu or the sMS-200ultra. Or simply setup a Raspberry Pi (or any other decent low-power SBC) to act as a network player.

Correct, but I am still in the need for a good Pre.

I have a more modest system than the one that you are envisaging but I have from the very beginning decided to keep amplification and digital to anlog conversion (via DAC, streamer, network player + DAC, whatever) clearcut separated. I am not arguing that this is a meaningful approach for others, of course. But for me it was a very helpful way to streamline decisions. Sometimes it is useful not to consider all possible alternatives, I think. 

Ardbeg10y posted:

Your feedback is appreciated, NBPF.

+1

I took off the power of my house to install some new lighting. I noticed that my original RPi + Dragonfly Black does start correctly when the power is back, but that the DigiOne needs some 'special attention' to be able to start again.

Ardbeg10y posted:

I took off the power of my house to install some new lighting. I noticed that my original RPi + Dragonfly Black does start correctly when the power is back, but that the DigiOne needs some 'special attention' to be able to start again.

What kind of "special attention" does the RPi + DigiOne need? My understanding is that earlier DigiOne models have a grounding problem that makes the interface freeze if the BNC (Coax) connector is disconnected. Rebooting the RPi + DigiOne completely solves the problem. The grounding problem apparently has no impact on sound quality (in fact, eliminating the problem seem to require adding some noise to the DigiOne's output) but can be very annoying when testing and comparing the DigiOne against other devices.

Last time I had to connect my monitor / keyboard / mouse to it and fix the problem. I need to finish my work first and then I'll hook up the RPI and let you know.

Some 'kernel panic' if I remember correctly.

Another thing: I'm going to replace my routers / switches by powered over ethernet (PoE) switches. I'm going to test if I can power the Allo Digione and Chord Mojo by it. If this works, I can entirely separate my digital stuff from the analogue stuff.

Had my RPi/DigiOne running since Friday. Initial thoughts are it's OK but quite different to the Naim streamer. May take a while to get used to the different presentation, but will enjoy the journey . Anyone have an opinion on adding an ifi iPower power supply??

Singlespeed posted:

Had my RPi/DigiOne running since Friday. Initial thoughts are it's OK but quite different to the Naim streamer. May take a while to get used to the different presentation, but will enjoy the journey . Anyone have an opinion on adding an ifi iPower power supply??

Regarding PS: I've tried the iFi iPower, the Allo PS and a random standard one which came with my phone. I could not find a difference - but I have a very limited pre-amp in place possibly hiding any difference.

Naim Streamer / Dac vs RPiDigiOne + Mojo: I have the Mojo also in usage and I think that what you / I hear is the Mojo. The Mojo has a very polished / polite sound.  I start to think that the RPi / DigiOne + nDac is a better option for me: the nDac has guts but is not too refined.

According to your profile, you use the Nait XS which is also known for its refined character - don't know but echo others here. Maybe polished + polite + refined etc ... is not your taste. It is not mine anyhow.

nbpf posted:

Ardbeg10y posted:

I took off the power of my house to install some new lighting. I noticed that my original RPi + Dragonfly Black does start correctly when the power is back, but that the DigiOne needs some 'special attention' to be able to start again.

What kind of "special attention" does the RPi + DigiOne need? My understanding is that earlier DigiOne models have a grounding problem that makes the interface freeze if the BNC (Coax) connector is disconnected. Rebooting the RPi + DigiOne completely solves the problem. The grounding problem apparently has no impact on sound quality (in fact, eliminating the problem seem to require adding some noise to the DigiOne's output) but can be very annoying when testing and comparing the DigiOne against other devices.

This time, the RPi is giving a solid red and green light. This should mean that the SD card can't be read. Even my PC cannot read it, so I think it is gone. Think I buy a new card tomoro ...

Wait ... suddenly it reads the card.

Need a new one, can't trust it.

Singlespeed posted:

Had my RPi/DigiOne running since Friday. Initial thoughts are it's OK but quite different to the Naim streamer. May take a while to get used to the different presentation, but will enjoy the journey . Anyone have an opinion on adding an ifi iPower power supply??

I have tried the RPi/DigiOne with an ifi iPower and with an Anker 20Ah powerbank and could not really tell a difference. I have written my impressions on the DigiOne earlier in this thread: in comparison with my current system (and with the HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro) the presentation was more engaging but also more glaring especially in the high notes. To which Naim streamer have you compared the DigiOne?

nbpf posted:

have tried the RPi/DigiOne with an ifi iPower and with an Anker 20Ah powerbank and could not really tell a difference. I have written my impressions on the DigiOne earlier in this thread: in comparison with my current system (and with the HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro) the presentation was more engaging but also more glaring especially in the high notes. To which Naim streamer have you compared the DigiOne?

Went from ND5XS to ND5XS + Mojo (which I preferred) to DigiOne + Mojo...

Ardbeg10y posted:

Naim Streamer / Dac vs RPiDigiOne + Mojo: I have the Mojo also in usage and I think that what you / I hear is the Mojo. The Mojo has a very polished / polite sound.  I start to think that the RPi / DigiOne + nDac is a better option for me: the nDac has guts but is not too refined.

According to your profile, you use the Nait XS which is also known for its refined character - don't know but echo others here. Maybe polished + polite + refined etc ... is not your taste. It is not mine anyhow.

I wouldn't characterize the Mojo as 'polite'? More 'exuberant' to my ears  When it was connected to the ND5 it sounded more animated & alive if that makes sense....?

Bob the Builder posted:

 

I have to say that using a Pi for me is a compromise as I traded in my Naim streamer for a better Nap but I have to say so far SQ wise I'm perfectly happy and this is without a better power supply for the Pi but key to this I believe is buying best dac you can afford.

The one thing that I am finding difficult is controlling the Pi as a streamer in a way that comes close to my experience with my Naim streamer which was pretty slick and trouble free. 

 

 

 

Bob have you settled on a control method for your RPi yet? as you stated, it's not as slick as the Naim experience (yet) for me. I've also gone down the same route as you, trading in my Naim streamer for a better NAP.