NDX and ND5 XS - why are they better than Sonos?

In my experience, the Sonos is a great, no nonsense player. 
BUT, it simply doesn't sound as good as one of the Naim streamers. In the system I previously used the Sonos, my CD3.5 comfortably outperformed the Sonos in all aspects of sound quality.
In the end, I bought a SuperUniti2 and after a week or two, tried the Sonos into the SuperUniti and promptly gave the Sonos Connect to a friend.
I guess a lot of it is down to the DAC but even using the SU, the Sonos still didn't measure up to my ears.
This was using Neat Elite SX speakers.

Never heard Sonos, but I guess it is safe to assume Naim builds better DACs and renderers. With your system, you should really abandon your Sonos and get an adequate digital source. Lots of threads on the NDs and third-party DACs... Most people would probably suggest an NDX, but I would start with an ND5XS (second-hand). And if you feel the upgrade itch, look into a DAC upgrade -- Naim DAC or the ever so popular Chord DAC. 

The main differences are in the power supplies and the analogue electronics.

Analogue electronics are badly affected by radio frequency interference.  In the case of Naim, the power supplies are much stronger, with lower supply impedance and much more resistant to transmitting RF from the digital side into the analogue electronics.  Equally importantly they provide a more stable power supply to the DAC.  Not only that but the analogue electronics are better in themselves - it's like the difference between a £200 preamp (Sonos) and a £2000 preamp (Naim).

Huge posted:

The main differences are in the power supplies and the analogue electronics.

Analogue electronics are badly affected by radio frequency interference.  In the case of Naim, the power supplies are much stronger, with lower supply impedance and much more resistant to transmitting RF from the digital side into the analogue electronics.  Equally importantly they provide a more stable power supply to the DAC.  Not only that but the analogue electronics are better in themselves - it's like the difference between a £200 preamp (Sonos) and a £2000 preamp (Naim).

But you can eliminate a lot of this by fixing the sonos digital output and feeding that into a decent DAC.  Sonos has a bit perfect digital output and if you use an optical lead you can eliminate electrical noise from the signal. You are stuck with standard CD resolution though so if you want hi res you need something other than sonos.

Mattnbarns posted:

Huge posted:

The main differences are in the power supplies and the analogue electronics.

Analogue electronics are badly affected by radio frequency interference.  In the case of Naim, the power supplies are much stronger, with lower supply impedance and much more resistant to transmitting RF from the digital side into the analogue electronics.  Equally importantly they provide a more stable power supply to the DAC.  Not only that but the analogue electronics are better in themselves - it's like the difference between a £200 preamp (Sonos) and a £2000 preamp (Naim).

But you can eliminate a lot of this by fixing the sonos digital output and feeding that into a decent DAC.  Sonos has a bit perfect digital output and if you use an optical lead you can eliminate electrical noise from the signal. You are stuck with standard CD resolution though so if you want hi res you need something other than sonos.

First of all you'll need a very decent DAC - and that's not cheap.  Even then there is an inherent uncertainty (amplitude noise and jitter) in transmission using consumer level optical transceivers, and as a result of this variable quality of the underlying physical mechanism of optical digital transmission, the sound is usually compromised to some degree (although the extent of this compromise can be anything from minor to quite significant).

I don't know how good the optical output from the Sonos is, but when comparing the sound from playing the same CD from my NAS direct using the 272 and from my Sony Blue-Ray player with an optical connection to the 272, it sounds a lot better direct from the NAS.

I have a Marantz SACD player ($1000 wonder), and a Nac n 172 with a qnap nas. The rips from cd sound much better than cd direct. I have plugged a bare CD5x into the pre amp, and the ripped cd files still sound better to me. When you step up to 24bit files it just gets much better again. And yes not all high res files are good but most are.

My advise would be a 272/psu and retire your 202/flatcap/sonos  or a NDX/psu to replace the sonos.

I think the 272 will offer a better sound along with a reasonable box count and simple system control. You could just try one bare to get started.

The Naim DAC is a very decent DAC, better than the one in the NDX I believe and cheaper than an NDX. I have heard sonos/DAC sound excellent as well as an NDX, though I have not done a proper comparison. The sonos interface is great, the connection rock solid ( you can even piggy back off it to run other network connected products) and it can run CD quality in up to 32 rooms. If any of this matters to the OP more than hi-res playback the DAC route might be the better option.

sonos digital out to a dac would be very good . lots of 2nd hand dacs out there too. that's how I started streaming nearly 10 yrs ago ,  sonos app is excellent.

The Sonos is doing two things, rendering the music files into a digital music stream, and converting that to a varying analogue signal - i.e. it is a renderer and a DAC. Just as are the ND5XS and NDX etc.

But the effectiveness of a DAC in doing its conversion in a way that outputs an analogue signal indistinguishable to the original at the recording stage - or even aurally sounding good even if not a perfect reproduction - can vary tremendously even given the same input signal, and on this forum you will find many comparisons of different DACs and assessments of relative "sound quality" (e.g. Chord Hugo vs Naim's DACs). The technical reasons are complex, and I leave explanations to those more knowledgeable in this area than I, but added to that the signal with which the DAC is presented from the renderer can also affect the converted audio, including jitter and RF modulation (depending on any inbuilt re-clocking or isloation and the effectivempness thereof).

That leads to consideration of the output of the renderer, and as alluded to above, even when 'bit perfect' the signal can have superimposed jitter and RF modulation from the device, computer or standalone unit. 

audio1946 posted:

sonos digital out to a dac would be very good . lots of 2nd hand dacs out there too. that's how I started streaming nearly 10 yrs ago ,  sonos app is excellent.

Yes that's a good start. If you've got Sonos in the rest of the house then that's a good way of getting the best quality in the main system and still be able to use the excellent Sonos user interface. The 272 would be a good move as suggested further up the thread. You've got a better streaming source for primary listening and can still use the ZP90 with it when you want whole house Sonos integration. 

Hi there,

I did something simialr to the OP. I used the Sonos into a 282/250 combo. I replaced with an NDX which is significantly better. The Sonos does not support hi res files above CD quality, which was my main reason for swapping out. At the very least, as has been stated, connect the Sonos to a good quality DAC and you will notice a big difference immediately. The DAC is the Sonos is pretty poor.

Good luck

A long time ago I used a Sonos ZP90 modded by Dr Gert Volk into Audiolab MDAC into 202/200.

It was very good. [I echo comments above that the Sonos GUI is extremely good and it's a doddle to set up, as you know - compared to the issues which historically I've had with the Naim App, the Sonos GUI was a breeze. The Naim App has only latterly caught up, and still suffers from periodic retrograde steps.]

But ND5 XS and now NDX into Chord Hugo into 252/250DR sound better, at least to my ears. The ability to play hi-res music (which Sonos couldn't then do, and may still not do, but Naim units can) was a factor.

Each step along the way has brought improvements, some more than others. I agree with others above: why not start by looking at an external DAC - nDac or other - which you can then keep even if you go down the ND5 XS or NDX route?

Thank you for all these responses. A great mix of a) suggested streaming improvements and b) technical explanations for what the electronics are doing/achieving. 

Re b), my understanding is that the Sonos is less good than the main alternatives when it comes to several stages of the process: rendering the digital information (jitter issues), converting digital to analogue (DAC quality issues) and the transmission of the analogue signal to the amp (analogue stage quality issues). "You get what you pay for." Is that broadly the right conclusion?

Re a), which in your view is better (on paper): ZP90 into nDAC, or replace ZP90 with ND5 XS? (My dealer, who is the one who pushed me towards streaming and has been ultra informative and helpful, was fairly cold about the nDAC as an option in this situation - I think I have a good idea why, but I'd be interested to hear whether anyone here agrees, and why.)

If I have understood correctly, going down the ND5 route will mean I have to switch from using the Sonos app to the Naim app. It sounds like Sonos is probably better - but not by much after recent Naim app improvements. And I can keep the Sonos system for all my other zones, so I'm not losing it completely. But anyway, the #1 goal is the music reproduction, not the interface. 

Thanks again!

Matt

Matt - Out of the two combos (ZP90>Naim DAC, ND5XS) you'd have to compare them yourself to see what you thought was the best for you. Remember that with the ZP90, you are limited to Red book material (basically CD quality 44.1 / 16). Given those two choices, i'd go for the ND5XS and keep the ZP90 as a secondary source - it's still good when you have a lot of folks round to have the whole house playing the same music via the Sonos zones and main system.

Worth comparing the options (including the 272) at a dealer to see what you like the best. 

James