Cables - My Conclusion

The Strat (Fender) posted:

...and I therefore put back the full Naim loom and wow I realised how I had lost that organic but rich sound.  

Certainly, the Naca was more dynamic and some might interpret as more Naim like, but after a short while I was turning the sound down to the point I was actually finding electric guitars and high female vocals almost unbearable, in fact aggressive but when we put back the Odyssey it was just sublime.

Welcome back to the Naim cable fold (mostly).

The description of NAC A5 - if you are used to another quality alternative and like female vocals is understandable. The A5 is good but once you have heard a genuinely better cable it is all too obvious where its compromises are for its price-point.

The reason I loved the SL speaker cables is that they open the mid-band beautifully and have naturally extended HF and far more tuneful bass and go deeper into the bass and keeps that integrated un-forced organic presentation.
I had enjoyed my NAC A5 for decades but the improvement was obvious and for me I'd say the speaker cable is the main upgrade or the SL cable loom set.

I'm happy more expensive and possibly better cables exist, but also very pleased Naim have finally brought out the Super Lumina range which beautifully complements what Naim equipment does exceptionally well IMO.

DB.

Interesting.

I have also experimented comparing Naim SL to Chord Sarum (TA) interconnects and preferred SL where others have preferred Sarum (TA or SA). I also disliked what the Chord Sarum SA did in my system. However differing opinions on interconnects (and DIN/XLRs) could only be partially explained by the use of different speaker brands as these cables are used at the front (and middle) of the chain rather than at the end of the chain for speaker cables. So additional variables will certainly come into play when comparing interconnects (and DIN/XLRs).

I agree that Chord Signature vs NACA5 speaker cable preference is likely to be heavily influenced by the particular speaker manufacturer concerned. Do you know if Kudos use Chord for the internal wiring of their speakers? If so that might be another explanation for your preference.

So for you and your system it is Naim stock interconnect and DIN/XLR but Chord Signature speaker cables in preference to the Naim 'stock' speaker cable (NACA5). It just goes to show it is well worth taking the time to try these things out in your own system at home and certainly not worth having any preconceived ideas.

nigelb posted:

Do you know if Kudos use Chord for the internal wiring of their speakers? If so that might be another explanation for your preference.

Kudos does use Chord.

Yes the wiring inside the S20 is Chord Rumour.  

Then it seems there might be some synergy (sorry, an overused term I know) between speaker cable and internal speaker wiring. Those with more technical knowledge might like to comment if this phenomenon is indeed a reasonable possibility. 

Speaker cable and speaker internal wiring matching and indeed mismatching might explain the disparity of views over speaker cable SQ we so often witness on here.

If yo need to analyse it... ? it is not right..Buying as Musical fidelity system  has been the best thing I have ever done..

I only ever buy based on a home demo and a thorough assessment of an improvement (or otherwise) in SQ. But I find it interesting to explore what might be contributing to the success or disappointment with certain kit (including cables) combinations and why there are diametrically opposed assessments of the same piece of equipment. SL vs Chord cables being a case in point.

That's all.

I have Chord Rumour inside my speakers & they are fed by Chord Odyssey,  both have the same dielectric & silver plated OFC wire,  the difference is the size,  Odyssey is 12AWG (3.31mm/2)   Rumour is 16AWG (1.31mm/2)

I'm not advocating the need for 'synergy' in this,  OK I have the big & small brother of the same cable family,  but in all honesty it just happened that way,  but I've not experimented as such.  All I know is I built the speakers using any old wire,  then when I finalised the tuning/voicing,  I then installed the Rumour & yes it sounded 'tidier'

Thanks for the update Lindsay. In the end it's back to the original cables that you have with the system. Well, if you did not try you wouldn't know. :-)

Every system is different (room and setup) and apart from personal preferences on how a person would prefer his system to sound like, I am inclined to think that the loudspeakers will play a role here in the assessment of all these cables. I do not have experience with Kudos speakers but have read about them being forward, leaning a bit toward the brighter end of the spectrum. Reading a bit more on the S20 on HifiNews may have given me an idea on your experience with both Chord and Naim cables. The excerpt from the review as follows:-

"The Super 20 does seem to slightly accentuate the leading edges of transients, acoustic guitars having a bit more of a ‘stringy’ and slightly less ‘wooden body’ type of balance than some listeners might prefer. This could be observed with the duelling guitars of Acoustic Alchemy’s Nick Webb and Greg Carmichael on the title track of the duo’s Reference Point album [GRP], the speakers’ forward presence bestowing a rather hyped sound that accentuated the squeak of fingers on strings and fretboards."

The NAC A5 (and/or Chord Signature TA interconnects) may have accentuated the forward, revealing or dynamic nature of the Kudos speakers. I share the same experience with the NAC A5. I also find the Chord Signature TA DIN-XLR (and the other complementing cable) to be more forward than the standard Naim cables, and yes it does sound more forced but in a good way in my system. My Harbeth speakers sound more dynamic and punchier in the mid/upper-bass with the Chord Signature TA. Perhaps the Signature TA's increased punch (or forced delivery in the context of your system) has combined well with the smoother and flatter sounding Harbeth speakers. Few folks have regarded the Harbeth to be flat, uninspiring and sleepy-sounding speakers so that may be the reason I find the Chord Signature TA to suit the system better than the standard Naim cables.

I can also relate to the comments about the standard Naim interconnects sounding more organic. The Naim cables do sound more relaxed and smooth flowing but flatter in my system as it doesn't have the punch and dynamics of the Signature TA.

Coming back to the NAC A5 vs Chord Odyssey. The NAC A5 has a harder and forced sound which gives it the fun and boogie factor thought it sounds slightly unrefined and crude at the top when compared to more refined sounding cables.  Hence, I am not surprised you found the NAC A5 to sound aggressive when compared to the Chord Odyssey. Although I don't use the Odyssey, I believe it sounds quite similar to the Epic Twin. For this reason I believe I can relate to your experience. It's just that the NAC A5 may sound slightly worse in your system as the Kudos S20 speakers may have exacerbated the shortcomings or weaknesses of the NAC A5. My Harbeth Super SHL5 Plus still sounds fairly smooth with the NAC A5 but it does sound as what that was described above when it's compared to the Chord Epic Twin, in my system, with my speakers and to my ears.

Hmmm very interesting findings.

Actually NACA5 to my ears is the reference cable that Naim amplifiers are designed with and to my ears is neutral enough, doesn't sound bright or harsh to me.

but then NACA5 sounded lovely with all the Dynaudio speakers I tried them with ?

To add to my previous post last evening & to link Lindsay's other thread on NACA5.    Like I said previously,  I'm not sold on the idea of cable "synergy" - in my case I have Odyssey & Rumour internal speaker wires,  but I have not experimented to arrive at this,  it just seemed a sensible thing to do.   I don't agree that NACA5 is harsh as such,  I've tried it on my system & I would not call it harsh,  far from it.   I'm more inclined to think NACA5 is allowing any harshness in the speaker to show up more.  I'm thinking modern extended bandwidth tweeters vs softer rolled off old designs,  maybe less than perfect crossover integration.n Maybe its the accuracy & clarity of the NACA5 thats doing this & the Odyssey is softening (filtering) it,  although I somehow doubt it as the silver content of the Odyssey should work the other way.    Its an interesting discussion & I doubt there is a real answer other than go with what works for you.    

analogmusic posted:

Hmmm very interesting findings.

Actually NACA5 to my ears is the reference cable that Naim amplifiers are designed with and to my ears is neutral enough, doesn't sound bright or harsh to me.

 

Me neither. Like all this stuff, it's only when you place something else in your system you start doing comparisons, with a high chance of introducing uncertainty. Many years ago I reached a point with my old active SBL system where any changes I made to it never quite gelled, so I stopped messing with it & it stayed the same for over fifteen years. I'm starting to think I've reached the same point with my active DBLS; recent kit I've introduced, whilst having some benefits, never seemed to sit well in the system. So I'm less and less inclined to fiddle with it.

Guys - absolutely right.  If it sounds right that means it is right so “leave well alone”.  

However, my reason for experimenting was that having set on my level - Xerxes, CDS3, 282, 250, S20s my intent was to optimise, that essentially means DR for the PSUs and wires. 

Having established that Odyssey is fine I could go with original intent and try Signature or yes SL.  But that is probably invsting £2k on a speaker that cost £4.5K.

It’s all good. Thanks chaps. 

Regards,

Lindsay 

Sometime ago I was of the view, speaker cables, interconnects, had a limited impact on the sound of one's black boxes...... 

But the more I have experimented, one realises they are just important as the black boxes... 

It's really all about finding what works best in ones system, in ones listening room and within ones budget.

Yes, if it sounds right it's best to just leave it alone. Sometimes folks are just curious with all the claims they read on the internet and curiosity got the better of the listener. The new stuff can sound better or worse than the existing stuff but if the system sounds fine it might be a better idea to leave it as it is.

ryder. posted:

Yes, if it sounds right it's best to just leave it alone. Sometimes folks are just curious with all the claims they read on the internet and curiosity got the better of the listener. The new stuff can sound better or worse than the existing stuff but if the system sounds fine it might be a better idea to leave it as it is.

unless one experiments one wont know whats on the other side

I replaced my Naim Naca5 cables with Klotz LY 240 and the Naim naca5 has remained in the attic since.

I replaced VDH i/c with Kimber Hero and the results are very good - new life into old discs.

I will try a Cardas parsec i/c as well.

The level of expenditure is system dependent and pocket dependent ofcourse.

But its not the brands that matter but the cables which work for your ears and that you will know when you experiment with a few cables ( speaker / interconnects or power ) .

wenger2015 posted:

Sometime ago I was of the view, speaker cables, interconnects, had a limited impact on the sound of one's black boxes.....But the more I have experimented, one realises they are just important as the black boxes... It's really all about finding what works best in ones system, in ones listening room and within ones budget.

mpw posted:

unless one experiments one wont know whats on the other side

But its not the brands that matter but the cables which work for your ears and that you will know when you experiment with a few cables ( speaker / interconnects or power ) .

I fully agree with the statements above. I've compared interconnects and power cables costing far less than the Naim Hiline and Powerline in my system and have found more favorable results with the cheaper alternatives. I think that part of the prejudice folks encounter when demoing alternative cables is the notion that they have to spend more to gain improvement. While spending more to get more generally applies to black boxes with all their internal complexities, cables are fairly simplistic and quality materials with quality terminations are the key. Not a lot of R&D in this regard so any cable maker with attention to detail can compete with the prominent, full-scale gear manufacturers. Plus the smaller, cable-focused shops have far less overhead and are not dividing their resources to development of other components, thereby offering quality products at lesser cost.

I've read these kind of comments and tried and wasted money on some cables from these companies with no overheads

Maybe it works for some people, but not for me, with Naim equipment, use Naim cables if one wants to preserve what Naim has engineered.

It's invariable a case of some gains at the expense of Naim timing and rhythmic ability.

Lindsay, if you did not like NACA5 with Kudos S20, I think you won't like SL either, and these cables have the same neutral tonal balance but share in common the rhythmic ability and engagement. Maybe your speaker likes Chord cables?

Analog - indeed I think your last sentence is the crux of the matter.  

Interestingly yesterday evening we had the Polarbear of this parish and his good lady wife over for supper and the view was unanimous that in my system the Odyssey works best and remains.  

Regards,

Lindsay

Indeed we were over for the sacrificial lamb for a rather wonderful Lancashire Hotpot and a listen to both the Chord Odyssey and Naim Naca in Lindsay's system.

For me, the choice of cables is very personal and comes down to personal preference, there is no right and there is no wrong, its what you prefer to listen to for a long period of time. In Lindsays system last night, the Chord clearly had the advantage, it was smoother, more natural and better balanced. The Naca sounds forced and crude but seemed to be more dynamic and had that characteristic  foot tapping ability. The Naim sound as some people call it.  Yet I sit here listening to London Grammar on my humble system with Naca between the amps and the speakers. In my system there is nothing forced or crude at all, yes I have had more exotic speaker cable here but I have always reverted back to Naca after a period of time and as we speak I have no inclination to change the speaker cable.

People mention Super Lumina for Lindsay but imo I feel the £2400 or so needed would be better served elsewhere. £2400 would get him a lot of Fraim, could certainly  DR his power supplies or god forbid, buy him an awful lot of music.

Or Lancashire Hotpot

Yes, having read the assessment of NACA5 and Chord Odyssey in Lindsay's system, I too believe that SL could be even more brutal at revealing high frequencies (particularly with the emphasis displayed by the Kudos S20s) and therefore possibly as hard a listen as the NACA5.

But, and there is a but, this is all supposition. Lindsay got to where he is with a satisfying system by trial and error. What SL speaker cables did in my system is declutter the sound and remove some thickness I was hearing with NACA5. Don't get me wrong, I used NACA5 for many, many years and was very satisfied with it. But if I chose to accept the SQ was fine with NACA5 and not to 'fiddle' or 'tamper' I would not have benefitted from the wonderful uplift I have enjoyed during each step towards a full SL loom.

Please don't misunderstand, I am not trying to persuade Lindsay to try SL. All I am saying is that there is nothing wrong in trying other things out in the quest for improved enjoyment of music. Also with such accommodating Naim dealers around, this need not cost anything unless you happen to buy said bit of kit.

So I say be inquisitive and try new things that you can afford. Listen in your own system and see if a new piece of kit offers VFM. You may never look back.

I would never discourage anyone from listening to anything Nigel, I am sure Lindsay will give SL cable an audition if and when he is ready. I have my own personal thoughts on Lindsays system and we spoke about some of them on Saturday night. Its up to Lindsay as to what he does or doesn't do next. 

As with anything else, hi-fi is a journey and none of us know where we will turn next, however I have been advocating for many years that sometimes the best thing to do is sit back and enjoy the music. After all thats what its all about     

Well one thing for sure that I’d concluded out of this thread

kudos S20 is no longer of my list of speakers to try, as Naca5 and Dynaudio sound fantastic together

Ive heard speakers like focal, PMC sound great with Naca5 too. 

I remember when Lindsay swapped out his Dynaudio for the S20 which seemed incredible to me at the time but maybe Dynaudio would have sounded better with Naca5 or SL.

As a fan of that sound, I find that it is very difficult to move to another speaker company (personally) and the huge percentage of  owners of Dynaudio tend to be life long customers too.

That is the risk of using non-naim speaker cables, I would always rather use NACA5 to judge the performance of a speaker. 

I remember bringing my B&W 805s speakers to my dealer showroom and asking him what he thought, it was a short answer "too bright" "too much bass". And not once was NACA5 discussed 

and the second thing I've concluded is that I am not going to try Chord speaker cables either, I am a Naim and Vertere cable man.

Vertere state their objective is not to change the sound in any way, which is very important if one wants to preserve the rhythmic ability of their expensive Naim electronics.

I just can't understand why anyone would want to compromise on that ability.