Cables - My Conclusion

Posted by: The Strat (Fender) on 06 October 2017

Guys,

You will know from my other thread where I initially contemplated trying some Chord Signature Reference speaker cable between my NAP 250DR and Kudos S20s following what I thought was encouraging experiments with Signature TA inter-connects. Well it hasn't turned out as expected but I've drawn a conclusion.

As I said I was initially impressed by the Signature stuff including the Din-XLR, more forward and more resolution. But after a while I began to suspect that the sound was actually more forced, and I therefore put back the full Naim loom and wow I realised how I had lost that organic but rich sound.

In turn this had me thinking that if Naim cables really worked best with Naim electronics, and of course that's an obvious conclusion, then I should re-address Naca as an alternative to my long serving (prior to my Naim days) Chord Odyssey. So a trial (fully run-in) set arrived 3 nights ago and was installed. The outcome was not as expected at all. Certainly, the Naca was more dynamic and some might interpret as more Naim like, but after a short while I was turning the sound down to the point I was actually finding electric guitars and high female vocals almost unbearable, in fact aggressive but when we put back the Odyssey it was just sublime.

So my conclusion is that by all means experiment but when wiring up Naim electronics Naim inter-connects will in all likelihood work best. However, for speakers the outcome is most likely to be speaker dependent and with another brand Naca could well have yielded a different result but with my S20s Odyssey was by far the better solution.

Regards,

Lindsay

Posted on: 09 October 2017 by Timmo1341

So many contributors to this thread (and forum) seem to set great store by what others say, write or hear! Me, I prefer to choose on the basis of what I personally hear. The only role reviews and forums play in all of this is to suggest items of possible interest for personal investigation. HH's comments reflect my views. I genuinely feel sorry for those who take as gospel the views of others, no matter how well intentioned.

Posted on: 09 October 2017 by Chris Dolan

Not that it really matters, but I am using NACA5 with Kudos Super 20s - very contentedly. Perhaps having an Aro helps

Posted on: 09 October 2017 by Huge

What we need is one speaker wire to rule them all...

Ah, oops, wait a minute, I may have got a bit to deep into this writing fantasy games thing again!

Posted on: 09 October 2017 by douglas

About 18 months ago I replaced my NAC5 with SL speaker cable and just under a year ago had my 500 upgraded to DR plus PS service. All using B & W 802 Diamonds. Sounds just great and more!

The interconnects between pre and power amp are the original DIN to XLR. My OAP neck will not allow me to confirm this. You can guess my question? if I replaced the existing with SL cables would I have a light bulb moment or just a better system? My dealer would be pleased to do the swap and that's the time to decide.

In the mean time, any thoughts on this upgrade? I think Bert Schurink has been down this route and its not a VFM option which is OK by me.

Posted on: 09 October 2017 by Timmo1341

Huge posted:
What we need is one speaker wire to rule them all...
Ah, oops, wait a minute, I may have got a bit to deep into this writing fantasy games thing again!

Come on, Huge - surely variety is the spice of life? Imagine being denied the pleasure of reading impassioned debate about whose bits of wire are best!!

Posted on: 09 October 2017 by Tabby cat

Timmo1341 posted:
Huge posted:
What we need is one speaker wire to rule them all...
Ah, oops, wait a minute, I may have got a bit to deep into this writing fantasy games thing again!
Come on, Huge - surely variety is the spice of life? Imagine being denied the pleasure of reading impassioned debate about whose bits of wire are best!!

Brilliant Huge - brought a big smile after reading this cable thread - it's a serious business being a cable prophet on this forum - and of cause reminding us ad nauseam what they use system wise.

At the end of the day just borrow some from your dealers preferably run in and use your ears with your amps in your system with your speakers

Posted on: 09 October 2017 by Huge

Timmo1341 posted:
Huge posted:
What we need is one speaker wire to rule them all...
Ah, oops, wait a minute, I may have got a bit to deep into this writing fantasy games thing again!
Come on, Huge - surely variety is the spice of life? Imagine being denied the pleasure of reading impassioned debate about whose bits of wire are best!!

Ah well, it just depends on which fantasy world you choose to inhabit.

Mine range from dark, sinister and twisted, via oblique views of variant realities that develop out of our current world, through to other places that are strange, bright and fun but still equally twisted.

You need to choose carefully which of my game worlds you'll fall into; in some worlds those very bits of wire could spring to life with the evil intent of some sorcerer or malignant superpowered criminal. I don't think you'd be too bothered about stifling the pleasure of debate if your very existence is on the line (on the other hand, get it right and you could travel the galaxy in the company of the fay or become a minor deity in your own right).

Posted on: 09 October 2017 by analogmusic

‘I loved B&W until my dealer pointed out how bright it sounded....’

Surely you don’t give a toss what your dealer thinks? That’s just ridiculous. If I told you that Vertere cables were dreadful things, would you stop promoting them. What if a dealer told you that Dynaudio speakers were too dull sounding? What if a chef said that you should eat tagliatelle instead of spaghetti? Or a tailor said you should only wear double breasted suits?

Well he didn't just say it, he demonstrated what a neutral speaker sounded like, and instantly I heard the difference.

and once heard difficult to un-hear.

I wasn't really going to sell my speakers until I heard a better one.

Posted on: 09 October 2017 by Laxton Yeo

douglas posted:
About 18 months ago I replaced my NAC5 with SL speaker cable and just under a year ago had my 500 upgraded to DR plus PS service. All using B & W 802 Diamonds. Sounds just great and more!
The interconnects between pre and power amp are the original DIN to XLR. My OAP neck will not allow me to confirm this. You can guess my question? if I replaced the existing with SL cables would I have a light bulb moment or just a better system? My dealer would be pleased to do the swap and that's the time to decide.
In the mean time, any thoughts on this upgrade? I think Bert Schurink has been down this route and its not a VFM option which is OK by me.

Douglas, the SL Din to xlr is mandatory for the 500dr to show it’s best. It’s almost criminal that Naim didn’t include it with the 500dr to begin with.

The stock din to xlr somehow just didn’t portray instruments with the right timbre no matter what you do with the system. Replacing it with the SL tightens up the sound, extends the highs and cleans up the bass. It will be a eureka moment!

Posted on: 09 October 2017 by badlands

varyat posted:
Regarding the perception that Kudos have a hot top end- not in my room. I had Dynaudio Contour3.4S standpoints prior to my Kudos, both ran through NACA5. In my room the Dyn's definitely had the brighter presentation. The Kudos tweeter is more transparent with greater extension imo. I really think the room plays a huge role here.......
NACA5 is a great cable unless you start looking into mega -buck substitutes and even at that price point the NACA5 holds its' own .
ATB,
Mark

I don't want to turn this into a speaker thread, but since it's already been discussed, here's my take on the subject.

Based on the above impression,I guess that's why rooms play such an important role in the buying decision, but my ears tell me quite the opposite, the Dynaudio tweeter is much more refined and transparent, see through quality, than the Seas unit used in the Kudos speaker. That and the fact the S20's don't have nearly the scale of the Dynaudio speaker I compared them to, as they started to get very harsh when pushed. The Dyns just kept sounding better the louder you made them.

Just my opinion when I did the home demo.

By the way, what are standpoints?

Posted on: 10 October 2017 by Huge

Laxton Yeo posted:
Douglas, the SL Din to xlr is mandatory for the 500dr to show it’s best. It’s almost criminal that Naim didn’t include it with the 500dr to begin with.
The stock din to xlr somehow just didn’t portray instruments with the right timbre no matter what you do with the system. Replacing it with the SL tightens up the sound, extends the highs and cleans up the bass. It will be a eureka moment!

They'd have needed a time machine!

Posted on: 10 October 2017 by Allante93

Huge posted:
Laxton Yeo posted:
Douglas, the SL Din to xlr is mandatory for the 500dr to show it’s best. It’s almost criminal that Naim didn’t include it with the 500dr to begin with.
The stock din to xlr somehow just didn’t portray instruments with the right timbre no matter what you do with the system. Replacing it with the SL tightens up the sound, extends the highs and cleans up the bass. It will be a eureka moment!
They'd have needed a time machine!

@ Huge:

Speaking of time Machine, way back in 2012, the first leg of the Trickled down technologies was released.

The Front end was Dred, when Naim unleashed its Dred Power Supples, way back in 2012!

To stay on Topic, Mr. Strat ( Fender ), is talking Speaker Cables.

Within his System, he has come to the conclusion, that Naca A5 works best for him!

Archived 2012 Thread:

Originally Posted by Ron Toolsie:

Yes, none of the Naim amps have added output inductance that many other amps do...usually in the form of some sort of Zobel network.

All amps have a Zobel circuit - a small capacitor (aprx 100nF) with a series resistor (aprx 10R) in shunt across the output stage.

The series inductor that Naim do not have is not part of a classic Zobel.

This is typically what the differences are

Question.

Does Naim's Statement Amp, include the series inductor?

Just Curious, since the SL Speaker Cable was introduced for the Statement, although equally at home with the 500 & Classic Series. (552>282)

That Julian sure used his Noodle, taking the Speaker Cable out of the equation, with cost effective Naca A5.

JMHO & Take, that's all.

Enjoy Your Music, The Why!

Allante93!

PS. Times have changed, and Naim has joined the Club.

The Final Link.

IC & Speaker Cable.

Modern Age Technology!

Posted on: 10 October 2017 by douglas

Thank Laxton Yeo for your advice on the 552/500 interconnects. You have confirmed my thoughts that the SL cables would be the icing on the cake. I sat in my dealers demo room last year and was handed a pair of the SLs. Two cables each about a metre long and all for just over £3K. I had the usual "that's a lot for a bit of wire" at the time. HoweveriIn the context of the cost of the 552/500 that is a small percentage.

Its a 5 minute job for the dealer to do the swap and leave them for a week which he would be happy to do. I will go from there.

Thanks again.

Posted on: 10 October 2017 by The Strat (Fender)

Well it's all about where best to invest inevitably limited resource. For me, at the let's say mid table position in the Naim catalogue, spending £000s on cables isn't going to happen in preference to say investing in a SC or DR treating other stuff.

Posted on: 10 October 2017 by Emre

Full SL loom is what everybody needs thats my dealer told me.... no wait i am telling you...

They are expensive but the impact is comparable to electronics, so they priced based on that impact rather than the 1/100 cost of the retail price ))

give it a try... speaker cables - interconnect - Din/xlr is the most impact to least.....

also one good thing about them is that you close the cables subject and never look back

Posted on: 10 October 2017 by Huge

Emre posted:
<snip>
also one good thing about them is that you close the cables subject and never look back

That's a bit optimistic!

Posted on: 10 October 2017 by Huge

A set of SL cables would cost me £7k8, that would make them about 40% of the entire actual cost of my system and almost twice the cost of any single component.

Posted on: 10 October 2017 by ken c

Huge posted:
What we need is one speaker wire to rule them all...
Ah, oops, wait a minute, I may have got a bit to deep into this writing fantasy games thing again!

.. and in the darkness, bind them...

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 10 October 2017 by Huge

ken c posted:
Huge posted:
What we need is one speaker wire to rule them all...
Ah, oops, wait a minute, I may have got a bit to deep into this writing fantasy games thing again!
.. and in the darkness, bind them...
enjoy
ken

Do not meddle in the affairs of audio cable engineers, for they are subtle and quick to anger.

Xanthe (my 'nom de plume' for the fantasy / RPG genre).

Posted on: 10 October 2017 by ken c

Huge posted:
A set of SL cables would cost me £7k8, that would make them about 40% of the entire actual cost of my system and almost twice the cost of any single component.

and for me, a set (speaker and XLR) would be over £15K. i have no doubt in my mind that this would be a very significant upgrade to my active system (subject to audition of course) but i simply cannot afford that upgrade right now...

cue in violin... :-(

enjoy

ken

Posted on: 10 October 2017 by hungryhalibut

You lot have got too many boxes!! All I needed for an SL full loom was one din to XLR and a 3m pair of cables.

Posted on: 10 October 2017 by Allante93

ken c posted:
Huge posted:
A set of SL cables would cost me £7k8, that would make them about 40% of the entire actual cost of my system and almost twice the cost of any single component.
and for me, a set (speaker and XLR) would be over £15K. i have no doubt in my mind that this would be a very significant upgrade to my active system (subject to audition of course) but i simply cannot afford that upgrade right now...
cue in violin... :-(
enjoy
ken

The price that comes with being a Member of the 500 Active Club.

Enjoy those Black Boxes!

Allante93!

Posted on: 10 October 2017 by Huge

Hungryhalibut posted:
You lot have got too many boxes!! All I needed for an SL full loom was one din to XLR and a 3m pair of cables.

I only need one more DIN->XLR cable than that. And the SL is connecting together the same number of boxes as in your case!

Posted on: 10 October 2017 by Timmo1341

Here we go again, worshipping at the altar of the Church of Super Lumina. Give it a rest you guys. It is not, nor will it ever be, the one stop upgrade to end all upgrades, whether with Naim components or any others. Those who really want it and can afford it have already bought it, therefore need no conversion. Those who want it and can't afford it will just feel even more miserable. Those who can afford it, but have tried it and don't think it's the best thing since sliced, will not be converted. Have I missed anyone out?

Posted on: 10 October 2017 by Bert Schurink

Timmo1341 posted:
Here we go again, worshipping at the altar of the Church of Super Lumina. Give it a rest you guys. It is not, nor will it ever be, the one stop upgrade to end all upgrades, whether with Naim components or any others. Those who really want it and can afford it have already bought it, therefore need no conversion. Those who want it and can't afford it will just feel even more miserable. Those who can afford it, but have tried it and don't think it's the best thing since sliced, will not be converted. Have I missed anyone out?

The Super Lumina at least exists, proven........, the other worshippers are not sure.....:-)