Naim streaming app - is it still problematic?

The app is fine. It’s people’s network setups that often aren’t. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

The app is fine. It’s people’s network setups that often aren’t. 

Totally disagree, there is an issue with the app and handling latency. I have days when there are no drops and others where there are some drops outs. Phil mentioned in a recent posting that the latest beta release has some code which is attempting to address this issue. I am hoping it gets better because when there are no drop outs I love my ND5XS, when there are days the drop outs occur then the love quickly fades.

If in doubt avoid it. No need to buy on others experiences.

SeaKayaker,  I can't agree on that,  it doesn't explain why I don't ever get dropouts,  whereas from what I read of people with dropouts, many have improved their problem with network changes.      OK I can accept the app might stand some improvement if Phil says that is so,  but on my network - an all wired network - I don't see it.

seakayaker posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

The app is fine. It’s people’s network setups that often aren’t. 

Totally disagree, there is an issue with the app and handling latency. I have days when there are no drops and others where there are some drops outs. Phil mentioned in a recent posting that the latest beta release has some code which is attempting to address this issue. I am hoping it gets better because when there are no drop outs I love my ND5XS, when there are days the drop outs occur then the love quickly fades.

The latency issue relates to legacy platform firmware, and has nothing to do with the app. 

seakayaker posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

The app is fine. It’s people’s network setups that often aren’t. 

Totally disagree, there is an issue with the app and handling latency. I have days when there are no drops and others where there are some drops outs. Phil mentioned in a recent posting that the latest beta release has some code which is attempting to address this issue. I am hoping it gets better because when there are no drop outs I love my ND5XS, when there are days the drop outs occur then the love quickly fades.

Since I sorted out my network, no problems at all - rock solid.

The app is fine. I literally had only one glitch with a Beta-test version.

Key to success is a stable and well implemented home network.

I am fairly sure my home network is correctly set-up.

But what was wrong with the networks that needed to be "sorted out"? What was not correct? And was it only the Naim app that wasn't working beforehand, or did you know it wasn't right for other reasons?

M

My Naim app works fine. I've personally NEVER had an issue with it. (Now that's tempting fate!)...

Maughan67 posted:

I am fairly sure my home network is correctly set-up.

But what was wrong with the networks that needed to be "sorted out"? What was not correct? And was it only the Naim app that wasn't working beforehand, or did you know it wasn't right for other reasons?

M

An interesting projection.

As stated by HH, Mike-B and I - provided the network is correctly set up, the app works. It always has - even the 'ancient' versions work fine.

Most of the network problems I've seen on this forum boil down to unstable network gear, primarily ISP provided routers. Occassionally conflicts with IP address assignment or internet-over-mains (intereference).

I'm not sure where this pre-conception that 'Naim app doesn't work' comes from. But it's certianly untrue.

As mentioned above, I've never had issues with the app not working as I'd expect it.
My understanding is that some people's networks may be using "flaky", ISP supplied modem/routers, sometimes very old models which can't cope/don't fully support modern UpNP music playing.
Also, some people may have interference from multiple wifi networks in close proximity. (Lots of close neighbours/Flats/apartments for example)
Wifi routers do not like to be sited close to some other equipment such as compact fluorescent light bulbs or cordless telephone bases.
Multiple wifi access points may affect things, although I have lots of wifi access points with no issue.
If you're able to connect everything (Player/Nas/Router etc.) by ethernet cable, you're less likely to have any issues.
Using a top quality router, plug your player and NAS into a Switch which is directly plugged into the router will also help.

Relatively new Naim streamer user here (Atom later Nova), but I've had very few issues, and those I have are probably down to a poor WD NAS (music plays impeccably, just metadata and 'library' updates are not optimal).

I've had some work done on my property in the last 18 months including wiring ethernet to most rooms - it's considerably more robust for any network attached devices/media players than using powerline solutions or wi-fi.

Network stability is I believe paramount when using any kind of media streamers, audio or audio/video.

The Naim app however runs on portable devices via wi-fi - no wonder it struggle in some setups.

blythe posted:

As mentioned above, I've never had issues with the app not working as I'd expect it.
My understanding is that some people's networks may be using "flaky", ISP supplied modem/routers, sometimes very old models which can't cope/don't fully support modern UpNP music playing.
Also, some people may have interference from multiple wifi networks in close proximity. (Lots of close neighbours/Flats/apartments for example)
Wifi routers do not like to be sited close to some other equipment such as compact fluorescent light bulbs or cordless telephone bases.
Multiple wifi access points may affect things, although I have lots of wifi access points with no issue.
If you're able to connect everything (Player/Nas/Router etc.) by ethernet cable, you're less likely to have any issues.
Using a top quality router, plug your player and NAS into a Switch which is directly plugged into the router will also help.

Agree with all you've said - but I fear that the older legacy streamers (such as my Superuniti) have fundamentally flawed architecture, particularly around buffer sizes and latency. I have BT Infinity 2 (>55Mbs) into a Draytek VDSL modem > Apple Time Capsule > Netgear switch > Superuniti 2 via ethernet. Can't see much wrong with that scenario - and indeed I am able to stream at 4K video without issues - and stream multiple separate Tidal Hifi (FLAC) streams into various Sonos components around the house with nary a stutter. Yet I've had intermittent issues streaming a single FLAC Tidal stream to the Superuniti, though my Muso is much better (even on a Wifi connection). The Superuniti has a buffer level display (I assume in common with the other legacy streamers) - and I have watched this go from full to empty within a few seconds - followed by the inevitable drop out. This implies that the SU has inadequate buffer size to cope with Internet/WAN latency issues. This seems to have become significantly worse recently - though can't think why. I have tested the latency rate on my broadband over several weeks, and it seems to be around 35ms on average, and never seems to go above 70ms. 

When the Superuniti was designed, I'm guessing that assumptions were made that streaming was a local (LAN) issue - i.e. from a NAS or local storage. I don't even think it was possible at that time to get an uncompressed internet stream from the likes of Spotify - Tidal arriving some time later, IIRC? So, one assumes that the SU (along with other legacy streamers) are always going to be struggling to cope with anything other than ideal WAN conditions. I've come to terms with this, as frustrating as it is - and had accepted that the Nova with its much vaunted (by Naim) bigger buffer would fix the issues. Frustrating then that I've watched it increase in price from "launch" to today's price by £700...

I gather that a sticking plaster solution by way of a firmware update for the legacy streamers such as the SU is on its way - it remains to be seen how successful this will be. One can only hope...! 

Whatever about the app the Naim streamers themselves are showing some wear under the bonnet. If I was you I’d be looking at something like an Auralic Aries mini to your 202 and then looking at adding a DAC or waiting for the NDX2 with the new platform. 

I have a SU and UniQute, love them, but their day is done. 

.sjb

The latency issue mentioned above is a specific problem for some Tidal users with Naim streamers. It hasn't been a problem for me, but it has for some, and it appears that there is very little you can do about it if you want to stream Tidal natively from a Naim streamer. I would suggest that if you want to use Tidal, you try a Naim streamer on your own network before committing to a purchase.

Other than that, I have no real problems with the app or the streaming platform in general. I did need to make changes to my network to get it to work reliably, but they were simple enough, and once done, I've never looked back. 

Just to be clear my ND5XS has a direct Cat5e ethernet cable from the router to the back of the unit. I have days on end where there are no drop outs, then other days when it stops several time. If I run the tidal app on my PC which is hard wired no dropouts, if I run the tidal app to my laptop wireless I experience no dropouts.

In another thread there was a mention regarding 'Phil' from Naim stating that a beta version of the Naim App which has tidal embedded in it having some code updated which will/should/could (Im not sure what it will do) improve the issue with drop-outs. 

So let me be clear about the my response above, it has been my personal experience that everything in my house that is on the hardwired ethernet network works flawlessly except Tidal on the ND5XS.  I was responding to the original question and the comments from HH. When the software is made available for general release I will be happy to report if the problem is resolved or still an issue. The MacBook Pro, MacAir, iPad, and iPhone(s) in the house have no problems with the wireless portion of the network. 

I would love not to have any issues with dropouts at all, unfortunately the only time they have occurred is when I am using the ND5XS running the Tidal app. I am very happy that the majority of the people who use the Naim streaming have no issues. Unfortunately, myself and a few others from what I have read over the past several weeks have had issues. I am new to Naim gear and I am enjoying the experience the vast majority of the time.

This one little issue of drop outs occurring after spending over $4000.00 USD for the ND5XS and its streaming capabilities is an irritant at the moment and I am hoping a solution can be found.

FWIW, I am scooping up deals on disco Uniti stuff.  I totally get and sympathize with those who struggle with network Hi-Fi.  Naim have held up their end IME; and yet, some users will fail to thrive, usually due to pitfalls that plague us all.  Personal resiliancy and ability to resolve local setup issues is THE determining success factor with Naim, at this time, IMHO.

This may, partly, explain some of the popularity increase in LP records, which can still be very satisfying.

We are spoiled for choice, and need to factor in honestly our own strengths and weaknesses operating technical gear, and choose the right technology to fit the personality of the user, and associates/family.

Nick 

run  two apps   naim       auralic lighting           the lighting worked perfectly without no dropouts/buffering etc from day one ,the naim I alttle  irratating

seakayaker posted:

So let me be clear about the my response above, it has been my personal experience that everything in my house that is on the hardwired ethernet network works flawlessly except Tidal on the ND5XS.  I was responding to the original question and the comments from HH. When the software is made available for general release I will be happy to report if the problem is resolved or still an issue. The MacBook Pro, MacAir, iPad, and iPhone(s) in the house have no problems with the wireless portion of the network. 

I would love not to have any issues with dropouts at all, unfortunately the only time they have occurred is when I am using the ND5XS running the Tidal app. 

To reiterate what I said above: problems of Tidal dropouts are not related to the Naim app, which is simply a dumb controller. 

Tidal dropouts due to latency issues are down to the streamer firmware, and Phil is referring to beta firmware that makes improvements in this area. 

When Tidal is played on a Naim streamer, it goes directly to the streamer from the Ethernet wires; it does not go via the app and there is no ‘Tidal app’. The app is simply allowing selection and control of music coming from Tidal, just like it does with music coming from a nas, or with internet radio channels. 

App is great when it works, when its updated its a nightmare, i regret buying Naim again has totally ruined my Atom/Nova experience.

I had a Superuniti from its launch until 3 weeks ago. I live in a rural area with Broadband speeds between 3mb and 6mb. Tidal is my main source and  I have never ever had a drop out when listening to Tidal. I have had occasional dropouts on internet radio but this is clearly due to contention issues down to my ISP (BT). I use a Homehub 6 and a wired network. Tidal sounds indistinguishable from my CD rips when they are streamed in FLAC - rips have a very slight edge when transcoded to WAV on the fly.

I upgraded to the Nova for other reasons. The Nova is fantastic and I have had no problems with it.

I had a lot of problems with the Naim app loosing connection to my ND5. Never had problems with dropouts on the music (streaming from USB mem.sticks 32GB/128GB), only with controlling the ND5 from the app. 

Discussed in details in another thread about a month ago. I was told from several people that the problem almost certainly was my router. 

Since changing the datasource to streaming from a NAS (a cheapo Seagate Personalcloud solution for a start) I am almost certain that the problem has disappeared. At least I haven't had any drops of connection for a week or so, since adding the Seagate server. 

So the app and the music streaming from the server is now working perfectly. I don't use Tidal or Spotify though. 

With internet radio I have occasional dropouts of 20-30 seconds on one or two radio stations, strangely enough one of them being one of the channels from the Danish national radio which I would not expect to have signal problems. It could be an internet issue, I have seen the internet signal disappear briefly once in a while. Very annoying in fact, but since this is more or less related to one specific station (DR4) I don't think the cause is in my setup. 

As the system is working now, since introducing the simple NAS (which many here would say isn't up to the job) I am very satisfied. I mostly use WAV files and at the moment I have approx 280 GB / 10,000 songs with no speed/streaming issues at all. 

Claus

This thread is just amazing - the OP asks for help. Most experienced users, part of the Naim Beta-testing team, tell the OP the app is fine and malfunctioning is caused by network issues.

People start responding and despite all the evidence and statements say - no - the app is faulty.

Amazing, just amazing...

Sometimes it’s easier to ignore advice from those who what they are talking about, insist that you are right, blame Naim and complain rather than address the issues. Perhaps some people just don’t want to resolve problems as it would remove the need to moan. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

seakayaker posted:

So let me be clear about the my response above, it has been my personal experience that everything in my house that is on the hardwired ethernet network works flawlessly except Tidal on the ND5XS.  I was responding to the original question and the comments from HH. When the software is made available for general release I will be happy to report if the problem is resolved or still an issue. The MacBook Pro, MacAir, iPad, and iPhone(s) in the house have no problems with the wireless portion of the network. 

I would love not to have any issues with dropouts at all, unfortunately the only time they have occurred is when I am using the ND5XS running the Tidal app. 

To reiterate what I said above: problems of Tidal dropouts are not related to the Naim app, which is simply a dumb controller. 

Tidal dropouts due to latency issues are down to the streamer firmware, and Phil is referring to beta firmware that makes improvements in this area. 

When Tidal is played on a Naim streamer, it goes directly to the streamer from the Ethernet wires; it does not go via the app and there is no ‘Tidal app’. The app is simply allowing selection and control of music coming from Tidal, just like it does with music coming from a nas, or with internet radio channels. 

HH, your right the update does address the firmware that will make improvements. My point regarding the Tidal app is that using the Tidal app on other devices in my house on the same network either using a hard network connected PC or a wireless laptop, I have not experienced any drop-offs when using tidal. When using the ND5XS, drop-offs occur on occasion. 

For others who commented, I have a NAS that feeds the ND5XS and use it quite often without any streaming issues.

So the next step will be to ask Phil for a copy of the Beta Firmware to see if the drop-off issue I am experiencing is completely resolved or improves.

I appreciate everyone sharing their experiences.