Naim streaming app - is it still problematic?

If you have consistent web browsing, your network is fine. No need to change anything there. 

If one doesn't have issues with the Naim app or any other app for that matter, it doesn't mean that the app is without faults. It just means that these people happen to have bought the components that the Naim app don't conflict with. 

Anyway, Naim devotees will alway defend Naim. So if OP wants to jump the Naim streaming ship, just ask one of the Naim fanbois here what networking and server gear they have, and you're fine. 

And off course there are still some other issues. Here's the search menu. Strange layout and color scheme. K3 search, I blame my daughter for that.  

Searching for London Grammar. Yeah, why not. 

The interface isn't that usefull. Apparently Naim feels you have to know all album covers. And artists. Because there's no text. 

But luckely, the search is stored. O, wait, it's not. The app only wants to remember winterlounge and K3. Note also the recent search box changed a bit. Why? Who knows.

But I guess the app is fine and I need to change my network, my device, my ISP, my utilities provider and possibly my house and family too.

Joking aside, no, the app is not without faults. Get a dealer to loan you a streamer, set it up in your house as it should and see if you like the results. 

Adam Zielinski posted:

This thread is just amazing - the OP asks for help. Most experienced users, part of the Naim Beta-testing team, tell the OP the app is fine and malfunctioning is caused by network issues.              People start responding and despite all the evidence and statements say - no - the app is faulty.                         Amazing, just amazing...

Such is the ways of people ..........  problem that I see is the app gets the blame because it "appears" to be the item thats lost the  connection whereas it might be the renderer (player), the streaming service or a network issue & the multitude of possibilities that entails.   Add to that some people call everything "app" & don't/can't differentiate hardware, software, firmware etc. & everything seems to get heaped into the "app" category.  

I'm not saying the app is faultless,  as we both know;   it's had discovery issues (finding rooms)  but as far as I can tell reading the beta reports on that,  it does not include 'losing rooms' unless the network connection has issues

Streamz posted:

If you have consistent web browsing, your network is fine. No need to change anything there. 

<snip>

Err, that's not necessarily true.  A streaming system behaves quite differently to http: request / response messages.

Streamz posted:

<snip>

If one doesn't have issues with the Naim app or any other app for that matter, it doesn't mean that the app is without faults. It just means that these people happen to have bought the components that the Naim app don't conflict with. 

 

Anyway, Naim devotees will alway defend Naim. So if OP wants to jump the Naim streaming ship, just ask one of the Naim fanbois here what networking and server gear they have, and you're fine. 

I'm not sure what the last sentence means.  However, even with the same components in your own house, things can still go wrong with internet streaming due to factors with the external telecoms gear and your ISP.  These aren't in your control, nor are they in Naim's control; furthermore it's just not possible for any manufacturer to test for and allow for every possible combination of these.

In terms of Naim devotees believing that the Naim stuff works, well this is the Naim forum, so what do you expect!
Not only that but most people on this forum are prepared to put a little effort into sorting stuff out and optimising their systems in return for the gains in SQ.

Perhaps you should quit this forum and stick to Sonos?

Huge, are you suggesting Naim should look at how Sonos is handling these things? Proprietary, I know, but seems to work at scale. No hands on experience though. 

And no, most people are not willing sort things out. They want stuff to just work. SQ is another matter, nothing to do with it. 

As said before in another thread, Naim should develop within thight boundaries. Other app develops can. 

You are blaming the network. I stopped argueing with you in the other thread, someone else stepped in and explained why it's not a network fault. Still, you and a lot forum membes will always point to the network. 

Which is in many cases, if not almost all, complete nonsense. 

Of course, you are quite right. Naim and the Beta testers are wrong. Totally clueless, all of them. The app is rubbish. Nobody can make it work. 

Streamz posted:

Joking aside, no, the app is not without faults. Get a dealer to loan you a streamer, set it up in your house as it should and see if you like the results. 

Personally I have had a few issues over my years of Naim ownership, however these days its very very rare to encounter drop outs, not with Hi-res from my NAS, nor my Unitiserve, nor with Tidal Hi Fi. If I do get an issue with Tidal drop outs its because of an actual problem with the Tidal servers, and I know this because its reported by many and Naim get stuck in to liaising with Tidal to fix it.

What do I put my lack of issues down to? The fact that ive tidied up and made my network stable and robust. And I live in the sticks with a very variable broadband service too.

I wouldn't want to change from Naim, I'm very happy with my system which is now set up to its optimum.

I know some people do have issues, and I dont put my blinkers on and deny that they do. I can only draw on my own experiences as to resolutions.

But in the end, to the OP, don't take the polarised views here to confuse you, as Streamz says, borrow one from your dealer, check it out in your own environment. If you like it and the Naim app interface, buy it, if it doesn't work for you, don't.

Hope this helps.

Streamz posted:

Huge, are you suggesting Naim should look at how Sonos is handling these things? Proprietary, I know, but seems to work at scale. No hands on experience though. 

And no, most people are not willing sort things out. They want stuff to just work. SQ is another matter, nothing to do with it. 

 

As said before in another thread, Naim should develop within thight boundaries. Other app develops can. 

You are blaming the network. I stopped argueing with you in the other thread, someone else stepped in and explained why it's not a network fault. Still, you and a lot forum membes will always point to the network. 

Which is in many cases, if not almost all, complete nonsense. 

OK, you didn't read the rest of the thread (or didn't understand it), so you're still jumping to the same conclusion.

ChrisH posted:

Streamz posted:

Joking aside, no, the app is not without faults. Get a dealer to loan you a streamer, set it up in your house as it should and see if you like the results. 

Personally I have had a few issues over my years of Naim ownership, however these days its very very rare to encounter drop outs, not with Hi-res from my NAS, nor my Unitiserve, nor with Tidal Hi Fi. If I do get an issue with Tidal drop outs its because of an actual problem with the Tidal servers, and I know this because its reported by many and Naim get stuck in to liaising with Tidal to fix it.

What do I put my lack of issues down to? The fact that ive tidied up and made my network stable and robust. And I live in the sticks with a very variable broadband service too.

I wouldn't want to change from Naim, I'm very happy with my system which is now set up to its optimum.

I know some people do have issues, and I dont put my blinkers on and deny that they do. I can only draw on my own experiences as to resolutions.

But in the end, to the OP, don't take the polarised views here to confuse you, as Streamz says, borrow one from your dealer, check it out in your own environment. If you like it and the Naim app interface, buy it, if it doesn't work for you, don't.

Hope this helps.

Two things I forgot to say.

Another reason for my once having issues to my now rarely encountering a problem is because Naim have squeezed every last drop of performance with firmware updates. 

But I believe the OPs question was about the App, no? Not latency, networks, blah, blah, blah? I also find the App fine. iOS seems to be better for most people compared to Android. But the App is basically only displaying what the UPnP server is sending it. Again, there have been issues in the past, but I really don't see them in my environment.

My second point is that when the OP asks the dealer if he can borrow a Naim streamer for home demo, he should tell his dealer of his reservations regarding the app interface. If the dealer is worth his salt he will make pretty sure that the OPs set up is good to ensure a decent demo.

Of course - I am also so stupid and deluded, being a Naim Beta-tester, that I never realised how inadequate the app is.... it always refuses to stop working, it never disconnects from my Naim streamers (4 in total) and just delivers a flawless service...

I must also be very inept since I have managed to concieve and put together a fully working wired network, despite having no IT background. And a network that just works and refuses to malfunction. All that from reading a Naim guide to streaming setups.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Of course, you are quite right. Naim and the Beta testers are wrong. Totally clueless, all of them. The app is rubbish. Nobody can make it work. 

Hm, just take a look at the screenshots I posted. Now I can say some nasty words about developers and beta testers, but won't. Because I sincerely do believe developers do their best and also the beta testers. 

And personally I do not have had connection issues. Yes, I couldn't use Tidal for four months, which was solved by an Naim app update (issue recognized by Naim, but no doubt Huge would have blamed the network). 

Noticing the number of small updates recently, primarely to solve bugs, Naim is learning. Which is good news for all. 

Huge, again, not argueing with you anymore. But you can help me out with my issue, see the screenshots. Which network settings are messing up my searches in the app? Using Meraki stuff, MR33 and MS220-8P. 

Adam Zielinski posted:

Of course - I am also so stupid and deluded, being a Naim Beta-tester, that I never realised how inadequate the app is.... it always refuses to stop working, it never disconnects from my Naim streamers (4 in total) and just delivers a flawless service...

I must also be very inept since I have managed to concieve and put together a fully working wired network, despite having no IT background. And a network that just works and refuses to malfunction. All that from reading a Naim guide to streaming setups.

I see a pattern here...

Adam, the world is bigger than you think. To give an idea, ever seen the ratings and comments of the Naim app in the Play Store?

Just for reference, here's the Sonos score. Not my idea, someone brought Sonos up in this thread.

Maybe the OP took a look at these ratings too? Hence this thread? And seeing the tone of the reactions of two beta testers, I can imagine this doesn't contribute to his confidence...

Again, I really do want the Naim app to be good. No good streaming solutions and Naim will cease to exist in a few years. Which would mean that I can write off a large piece of the investments I made in my setup. 

Sreamz  I can't help you with the particular Android device you have, but I agree that not putting text with the album covers is not sensible.

May I also ask how long you've actually worked as a professional software developer?  I'm a little surprised you don't have more understanding of the difficulty of integrating 3rd party remote interfaces, especially when 3rd parties sometimes change interface details.  Perhaps you should remember how much this causes problems with outsourced development work and the contractual lead times involved in that sort of technical and project management and the A to B to C type of commnication that inevitably results.  (Note it's not that I'm saying that this is the case here (that would be covered by Tidal / Naim commercial confidence), but without inside knowledge I can't say that there hasn't been any change to the Tidal integration service interfaces.)

In terms of the NDX's core functionality however, I believe it should function robustly unless there's an issue in your network.
In terms of the more recent add-on functionality, well that may be another matter; and Tidal integration IS an ad-on function.  If you want to argue about that and say that Tidal integration is core functionality...  Well, how old was Tidal when the NDX hardware was introduced, now let me see, oh yes, Tidal was then minus four!

Naim has done well to get the NDX to integrate into something that didn't even exist when it was designed.  For these add-on functions, you can expect some bugs to take time to work out, especially when co-ordinating two outside organisations is involved in the project management.

Now, on the other hand, if you have serious problems with the NDX's mainstream functionality such as UPnP/DLNA streaming, or S/Pdif into the DAC...?

I went from a Sonos-based system to a Naim mu-so some years ago.

Sonos supported a lot more streaming services than Naim did, and you could build playlists that combined music from multiple sources, e.g. Google Music, Deezer and your NAS.

Sonos also had a function that one could enable that would allow you to “level” the music played so you would not have to adjust the volume when playing tracks from different sources (with different output levels, e.g. ripped CDs from the 80s/90s and today).

Also the Sonos system seems to generate iits own index of music stored on your NAS drive, where as Naim depends on the music server you have installed. This does - in my setup - lead to a bit more slow browsing of my 38,000 tracks if a browse by the track.

Now some of the above is hardware-related rather than app-related; and may even have disappeared in newer Naim streaming software (although not for the mu-so).

i still think the Sonos app appears more user-friendly than the current Naim app, however, the Naim app has worked fine for me over the last 2.5 years.

/Peter

By the way comparing the reliability of software written for Sonos, a mass market company consumer audio manufacturer with a $1bn turnover to Naim, a niche high end HiFi manufacturer with a turnover of about $25M is disingenuous.

Yes the world is far bigger than Naim - in fact they're quite a small company in international terms.

I don't use the app anymore so can't comment in general on its latest iteration, however, a friend of mine who works in IT and has a robust home network has long since given up trying to use Tidal on his Muso because it quite simply doesn't work reliably. It does however, on the same network, work with other devices. Beta testers do good work in often frustrating circumstances and are understandably committed to what they do and the product they test but if feedback in the wild is as poor as it appears to be there is an issue. Even if that issue is often network related, if other manufacturers are able to stream services on the same network then it needs resolving. Ignoring the problem or suggesting users should fiddle with their network until they make it work with Naim isn't the answer because the vast majority of casual customers with entry level devices will just go elsewhere or give negative feedback which may persuade others to go elsewhere. The app I use to control my music cost a full sixty quid, it integrates with Tidal and Qobuz beautifully and, in my honest opinion, Was streets ahead of the Naim app interface when I moved across. Naim should be able to at least match that in my view with the resources they have available and the price they charge for hardware. Being defensive or allowing it to become an emotive issue doesn't help

Huge, this IS the Android app.....why do you think I post the Play Store screenshots?

<EDIT, see you figured out that I do not have the iOS version and editted your post>

Btw, not one, but both my devices...Asus tablet an OnePlus 3T phone:

And no, I didn't buy an NDX solely for DLNA streaming roughly 1,5 years ago. I bought the unit because of the integration with the 282, and, just as important, it promised online streaming possibilities.

If a product is advertised to do Spotify and Tidal streaming, which Naim does, it_should_work as advertised. Nothing to do if it is add-on or not. 

Maughan67 posted:

I am on the verge of jumping into a purchase of an ND5 XS. Or maybe an NDS.

Is this still an issue, or is the Naim app now sorted and operating as you would expect a Naim product to operate?

Thanks!

Matt

Naim App with NDS. Works flawlessly for me. 

in the beginning a lot of problems with this bloody app, since I have an external router from tp link - no problems whatsoever.

No, the Naim app has never been problematic here, and even its predecessor  Nstream work pretty well. 

In our lives simply we can’t get all what we want -,good sound and crappy app or perfectly working app and crappy sound‘ LoL

From rationalwiki.org...

As most ancient and isolated peoples have expressed, the forces of magic can be capricious, arbitrary, mendacious, and cruel.
People who use modern software also find this true.

Wow. It seems my apparently innocuous question has generated some unexpectedly heated debate! Thank you for all your very useful and interesting posts. 

Coming to this anew, my observations are:

• It seems that most problems have occurred with network connection issues, as opposed to the app itself being clunky or crashy. 
• It is nevertheless a little absurd to expect customers to be home network technicians and to set up and maintain an optimum network environment. I like that sort of nerdy crap, but I expect the vast majority of customers absolutely do not. "Plug and play" means just that. I hesitate to compare Sonos, but that performs that role beautifully, seamlessly, elegantly. 
• I can see there is a difference between a buggy app and an app that is inherently ok but affected by a change in a third party's streaming service. But as has been said by others posters above, Sonos seems to manage it. 
• In any event, it also seems that there are some connection/network issues even just with local streaming of FLAC files from a NAS. 
• It is no use saying "ah, but Sonos is bigger and richer than Naim...". Customers just expect things to work - especially products that are premium products. A problem is a problem, irrespective of the underlying cause. 
• Clearly, a number of users have had problems. For what exact reason, it's hard to gauge. And it doesn't seem widespread, from a percentage perspective. But I don't think those undoubted issues should be dismissed as "user error". 

I have to say, although I am keen to get an ND5 (and probably will do), I am now just a fraction nervous that maybe I will miss the almost seamless Sonos user experience - either because the Naim app isn't as well designed, or because some latent glitch in my network means I have problems in functionality (ie I can't play music sometimes). Hopefully and probably not - but it seems there is a risk, and if that thought pattern is shared in the wider public, that must affect sales and interest in Naim streaming options. It seems that a company like Naim needs to address that perception, whether or not it is a widespread issue. And isn't that exactly the simple point the "complainers" in the thread are making? 

M

All operational issues encountered here have been attributable to network/hardware issues. I don't think the app is inherently unstable. In terms of it's interface usability and general slickness, I'd say it's pretty mediocre. Not bad, but nowhere near what some other manufacturers have done, often for equipment that retails for a fraction of Naim prices.  It's not fundamentally broken. It's OK.

Harry,

What do you like better?  I have only know Naim, Sonos and Denon.  Of the three, Naim works best, given my requirements.  Sonos has some advantages, but I am not using my Connect at tho moment because the Naim alternative sounds better.

Nick