Recording Cleaning - Is it totally effective?

Yes if the clicks are caused by permanent scratches or dents then cleaning won’t solve the problem.  But don’t underestimate the micro-crap that gets in the grooves which can’t be seen but will cause considerable degradation of sound.  That’s when a good clean really comes into its own.  

Regards,

Lindsay

silklee posted:

Anyway, should I let the liquid sit on the vinyl for a while before vacuuming it off?

I'm not familiar with the Monks RCM or their fluids. If you are attempting to clean mildew from a record then you need to use an enzymatic cleaner specifically designed for mildew and let the fluid sit for the specified time. Mildew is inherently difficult to remove from LPs and I've found it best to simply pass on records with mildew rather than attempt to salvage them. The very first thing I do when inspecting a used LP, before even removing it from the jacket, is crack the jacket open and sniff the contents. If it smells like mildew it's not worth my time. Mildew resulting from records being stored in damp conditions is obvious to the nose. Less obvious is light mildew due to a previous owner that blew onto the LP to remove dust. This mildew is due to saliva spatter. You'll probably have better luck removing the saliva spatter, but either way mildew is notoriously difficult to clean and tends to leave some level of audible pops. The other danger with mildewed LPs is that the jackets are likely infected and can serve as a potential breeding ground for the rest of your collection regardless of how well you clean the LP. Best to avoid bringing mildew home in the first place in spite of how rare or tempting a record may seem.

As Lindsay has said if the vinyl grooves have damage cleaning won't be able to improve that.

I buy quite a lot of used vinyl. It's always a bit of a gamble. Some vinyl looks perfect but even after cleaning there is still heavy surface noise in the grooves which indicates damage which can't be seen by eye. Other times vinyl which has a few visible light surface scratches finger marks etc plays perfectly well after cleaning.

I am not familiar with the Keith Monks machine but assuming you are using it as per instructions then it sounds as if your records have some groove damage.

Prem.

When music is playing, the clicks and pops hardly affects me. But there is almost never a silent passage even for new vinyl in between tracks (even after cleaning). There will minimally be some hissing sound. Or I cant be expecting 'digital silence'?

if you're listening to all analog productions then the prominent hissing may well be due to tape hiss; mechanical noise from the friction of the tape passing over the recording head. Even with digital recordings, there will be noise or rumble due to the friction of the stylus tracking in the groove. Either way, I'd say some level of noise is inherent in vinyl replay and will be most notable during silent passages. You'll hear it between tracks regardless of how well-cleaned your LP is and there is no 'digital silence' to be expected in vinyl replay.

hello

i have the classic km m/c, you need to remove the liquid and dirt off quickly, so it does not evaporate and you have enough for the nozzle the suck up, otherwise it will leave the dirt behind.

apply the liquid, so it shines, agitate with the brush for 10-20 seconds, suck off the fluid and dirt with the arm.

if your not happy, clean the record again.

paul

PS the nozzle hole size is very important, it will wear over time.

I use a VPI with either their fluid or the Clearaudio one. As others have said phyicial damage can't be reversed but the VPI is great at reducing surface noise even on new records. It's not the quietest machine sounding like a vacuum cleaner. Once cleaned I always use a new inner sleeve - no point in putting the dirt back on! I use the Nagaoka ones.

An RCM is not a panacea for noisy vinyl. I have records which I know are not damaged, and have been thoroughly cleaned with my Moth RCM. They are still noisy. Dunno why.

But .............. a good RCM is most definitely worth owning if one has a sizeable record collection. It's always worth cleaning new vinyl to remove any traces of mould release agent, and as Ravenswood stated; always replace cleaned discs in a new poly-lined inner sleeve.

John.

I have a Okki Nokki machine, it is a hassle to clean every record before playing them but it makes a huge but huge difference in cracks and pops in a non damaged record....  it is a must unfortunately. ....

While I have dabbled with a cheap record cleaning system I prefer to follow the lead of Rega and just play my records. I handle them with care, use liners, put them away straight after playing, the usual stuff. Some are noisier than others but surface noise is rarely a big distraction. 

Where a wet clean does help is with static. Partly SQ, but mainly in avoiding the mat lifting off with the record and related chance of cartridge damage.

Stu

I have a Loricraft PRCM 4. Very similar design and quality to the Keith Monk’s which was the first.

The good thing about the Loricraft is the brush which is very stiff. Fear not vinyl is hard to damage. Project provide a very feeble goat hair brush.  What is yours like?

L’Art du Son cleaning fluid works very well. The sonic difference before and after is very noticeable, like a box upgrade. Try 1 to 3 isopropyl alcohol on one bad record and see is it improves. 

You have a top system so quite surprised you have a problem. Did you have too many pops and cracks before? If your interconnects and Phono stage filter the signal by blocking high frequencies surface noise can get exaggerated.

Try finding records without the pops and cracks and see what the cleaning does. If you still have a problem try playing on someone else’s system to see if it goes away. I’m in Gloucestershire.

Phil

Hi Filipe,

Is your preference L’Art du Son or isopropyl?

Richard

FangfossFlyer posted:

Hi Filipe,

Is your preference L’Art du Son or isopropyl?

Richard

Richard, I would only use isopropyl alcohol if there was a problem. In the old days isopropyl alcohol was used all the time but there are suggestions that it can do long term damage used all the time. This is Terry’s advice, and he sells L’Art du Son.

Phil

Silklee- perhaps you should try zapping the LP with a Furutech DestatII after cleaning with your Monks . Much of the static/pops are eliminated with a 10 sec treatment while the LP is spinning on your platter. Nice machine /reasonably priced for the benefits it brings..

ATB,

Mark

Another thing - LPs are susceptible to a static electricity / charge build up. Difficult to get rid of with cleaning.
There are some methods, but they are bit unorthodox - once you see it work, than you believe it

I finally bought an Audio Desk machine from my dealer after having to replace my semi expensive cartridge because of my  used dirty records destroyed it. Plus this was a really big issue on here 10 years ago with all sorts of machines, some just too fiddly for me.  It's quieter, automatic, and vacuums and stops in about4 minutes. It has the bonus of Ultrasonic vibration to get at the deepest gunge.  I'm very pleased with it, maybe too expensive for most people.  I just cleaned a few records for a DJ and he was amazed at the difference on some old ones he's heard a thousand times.

mudwolf posted:

I finally bought an Audio Desk machine from my dealer after having to replace my semi expensive cartridge because of my  used dirty records destroyed it. Plus this was a really big issue on here 10 years ago with all sorts of machines, some just too fiddly for me.  It's quieter, automatic, and vacuums and stops in about4 minutes. It has the bonus of Ultrasonic vibration to get at the deepest gunge.  I'm very pleased with it, maybe too expensive for most people.  I just cleaned a few records for a DJ and he was amazed at the difference on some old ones he's heard a thousand times.

it doesn't vacuum.

ricsimas posted:

mudwolf posted:

I finally bought an Audio Desk machine from my dealer after having to replace my semi expensive cartridge because of my  used dirty records destroyed it. Plus this was a really big issue on here 10 years ago with all sorts of machines, some just too fiddly for me.  It's quieter, automatic, and vacuums and stops in about4 minutes. It has the bonus of Ultrasonic vibration to get at the deepest gunge.  I'm very pleased with it, maybe too expensive for most people.  I just cleaned a few records for a DJ and he was amazed at the difference on some old ones he's heard a thousand times.

it doesn't vacuum.

Agreed, that is because it works on a different principle. I can assure you that when I empty the fluid from mine there is just as much gunk as in the collecting jar of a vacuum style machine or even a Discoantistat. It is expensive, but I am satisfied it works (the usual riders, for me, in my home, with my records and my system) with both old and new records.

In response to the OP, it works, it is not 100%, you cannot repair a damaged record. I have no evidence, because once a record is "cleaned" you cannot go backwards. In one instance I bought a record from an on-line seller described as near mint, I played it and it sounded awful despite an apparently shiny surface. After washing it clearly had damage, the liner smelt of polish!

Also an apparently unplayable record on one deck works on another. There is no way I will risk my Transfiguration Axia on a visibly scratched record, I have an old Rega with an Ortofon 2m Red that I used for digitising and for a Garrard 4HF with a disco cartridge for cannot find another copy but must be played stuff. I am certain the stylus profile plays a part in this.

mudwolf posted:

I finally bought an Audio Desk machine from my dealer after having to replace my semi expensive cartridge because of my  used dirty records destroyed it. Plus this was a really big issue on here 10 years ago with all sorts of machines, some just too fiddly for me.  It's quieter, automatic, and vacuums and stops in about4 minutes. It has the bonus of Ultrasonic vibration to get at the deepest gunge.  I'm very pleased with it, maybe too expensive for most people.  I just cleaned a few records for a DJ and he was amazed at the difference on some old ones he's heard a thousand times.

Yes I have an Audio Desk Mud, and it's like getting a new record collection and a cartridge upgrade. Because it blow-dries the records clean, it also largely eliminates the problem of static, especially if you pop the LPs into a new polylined bag.

I use the Disc Doctor cleaning products with a cotton diaper and vacuum with a VPI RCM.    It works very well at a low cost and has a faster cycle time than the cavitation cleaners.   

Filipe posted:

I have a Loricraft PRCM 4. Very similar design and quality to the Keith Monk’s which was the first.

The good thing about the Loricraft is the brush which is very stiff. Fear not vinyl is hard to damage. Project provide a very feeble goat hair brush.  What is yours like?

L’Art du Son cleaning fluid works very well. The sonic difference before and after is very noticeable, like a box upgrade. Try 1 to 3 isopropyl alcohol on one bad record and see is it improves. 

You have a top system so quite surprised you have a problem. Did you have too many pops and cracks before? If your interconnects and Phono stage filter the signal by blocking high frequencies surface noise can get exaggerated.

Try finding records without the pops and cracks and see what the cleaning does. If you still have a problem try playing on someone else’s system to see if it goes away. I’m in Gloucestershire.

Phil

The Keith Monks brush does seem a bit on the soft side though I have nothing to compare it against.

A couple of the records I cleaned were brand new ones. Regardless, after cleaning, the LP surely sound better. Like a veil has been lifted. (In fact I sometimes wonder if the pops and clicks have become more distinct and clearer not in a bad way) More music, more details. But doesn't seem to do anything (much) about the pops and clicks.  Of cos there aren't any pops and clicks on the new records. 

On the issue of static, I do use a anti static brush after cleaning and before playing. Again doesn't seem to make much of a difference in regards to the pops and clicks. 

In summary, after cleaning the records comes out looking pristine and sounds much better (like a half box to a one box upgrade). But just the pops and clicks remain.

Will probably bring those LPs to get it cleaned (again) via my friend's ultrasonic cleaner purchased from China and see if it helps.

silklee posted:

Filipe posted:

I have a Loricraft PRCM 4. Very similar design and quality to the Keith Monk’s which was the first.

The good thing about the Loricraft is the brush which is very stiff. Fear not vinyl is hard to damage. Project provide a very feeble goat hair brush.  What is yours like?

L’Art du Son cleaning fluid works very well. The sonic difference before and after is very noticeable, like a box upgrade. Try 1 to 3 isopropyl alcohol on one bad record and see is it improves. 

You have a top system so quite surprised you have a problem. Did you have too many pops and cracks before? If your interconnects and Phono stage filter the signal by blocking high frequencies surface noise can get exaggerated.

Try finding records without the pops and cracks and see what the cleaning does. If you still have a problem try playing on someone else’s system to see if it goes away. I’m in Gloucestershire.

Phil

The Keith Monks brush does seem a bit on the soft side though I have nothing to compare it against.

On the issue of static, I do use a anti static brush after cleaning and before playing. Again doesn't seem to make much of a difference in regards to the pops and clicks.

Will probably bring those LPs to get it cleaned (again) via my friend's ultrasonic cleaner purchased from China and see if it helps.

So get yourself a proper brush and cleaning fluid from Loricraft. If you have a RCM why use a static brush or any antistatic stuff. It’s the gunk that reduces the sound quality. Clean the record again if it has static because it will draw dust from the air. 

Cartridges also need careful cleaning. Dynavector provide a dense fine carbon fibre brush. Use it periodically.

After a time the stylus tip gets sticky. I apply isopropyl alcohol with a fine art brush to the Dynavector brush and clean with longitudinal strokes. Leave the arm resting freely on the arm rest just in case. Loricraft sell a kit complete with magnifying glass if you want.

Phil

I have a PHK machine that looks like it is made from a childs toy plumbers kit and requires you to attach a domestic hoover to vacuum.  A guy in Brazil makes them and for the £75 I paid used it is right up there with the best vfm upgrades I've ever had. 

For quite dirty records I usually put the record on and whilst it is spinning I work the cleaning fluid right into the grooves by hand I then give it a vacuum I then repeat the process using the PHK's own cleaning brush vacuum again and then repeat using just distilled water for a final rinse.

New records just get a single clean and rinse, expensive quality pressings sound a lot, lot quieter and ordinary or used records are improved on average by at least 30%.  I have promised myself a 'proper' RCM one day but until then the PHK is an excellent buy.

Remember to use a wet and dry vacuum.

Slightly off topic but Filipe mentioned it above what cleaning methods do people use on their stylus.

I rather like the simplicity and utilitarian look of the PHK - and why pay extra for something that many already have - a good wet and dry vacuum cleaner.

Just recently I've been using a Pro-Ject VC-S cleaner and the results have been excellent using Pro-Ject's own alcohol free Wash-IT cleaning fluid.  I like the fact that like my old Nitty Gritty it doesn't use a full size platter - that way the playing area stays uncontaminated when you flip over. The clamp is also very simple to screw down and the vacuum arm very slick to use.  Cleaning an LP is quick - fluid is removed after around 2 revolutions - and I've even improved LPs that I previously cleaned with the old NG.   I even like the wooden handled brush, which deals well with all bar the most stubborn deposits (For the latter I have a variety of other brushes of varying harshness).

Downsides? It's quite big - a big black box.  The platter drive is a bit noisy - I'm told it's the gearing, although it's strong, so plenty of torque for when you really go at the dirtiest LPs. The arm and smaller clamp for 7" singles is about £120 extra. Oh, and the control labels tend to lift at the edges - I've had to re-stick mine - which really undermines the others good quality impression of the rest of the machine - a shame.

However, when you consider it's one of the most affordable machines out there, the value is undeniable. If Pro-Ject can deal with the lifting labelling then it's pretty much untouchable for the money.