Recording Cleaning - Is it totally effective?

Richard Dane posted:

I rather like the simplicity and utilitarian look of the PHK - and why pay extra for something that many already have - a good wet and dry vacuum cleaner.

 

It can be a regular vac, it doesn't have to be a wet/dry - the water is never sucked into the vacuum's hose, it is " trapped"  (for lack of a better word) in the machine, which you then empty every now and then. It works beautifully, and I only changed mine for a Loricraft for ease of use.

As for the Audio Desk, I think its main issue is not vacuuming. If you see gunk in the water, just remember that the same water (filtered, but no filtration is perfect) was left to dry on the record. Having used it, I'll pass until someone does one with a proper vacuum stage.

Loricraft PRCx here (cant remember x) -- static reduced to zero on all records i have cleaned with it. and the cleaned record sounds better to boot.

enjoy

ken

Filipe posted:

Cartridges also need careful cleaning. After a time the stylus tip gets sticky. I apply isopropyl alcohol with a fine art brush to the Dynavector brush and clean with longitudinal strokes.

Sticky? Interesting. I only ever dry brush my stylus. Manufacturers often warn against use of alcohol to clean a stylus as it can be detrimental to the stylus adhesive. Distilled water at most. If the RCM is doing its job there should afterwards be little to clean from a properly set-up stylus other than dust, most of which can be eliminated from the LP by an occasional carbon-fiber brushing in the first place. YRMV.

joerand posted:

Filipe posted:

Cartridges also need careful cleaning. After a time the stylus tip gets sticky. I apply isopropyl alcohol with a fine art brush to the Dynavector brush and clean with longitudinal strokes.

Sticky? Interesting. I only ever dry brush my stylus. Manufacturers often warn against use of alcohol to clean a stylus as it can be detrimental to the stylus adhesive. Distilled water at most. If the RCM is doing its job there should afterwards be little to clean from a properly set-up stylus other than dust, most of which can be eliminated from the LP by an occasional carbon-fiber brushing in the first place. YRMV.

I quite agree with the risk from adhesives, although with my Beogram 4001 l used lots without an issue. By transferring the alcohol from the art brush to the fibre brush the quantity can be kept very small. I was told by my dealer that the bigger risk is the alcohol travels up the cantilever to the coil, but not sure of this unless stupid amounts of alcohol used.

One thing is don’t use ultrasonic cleaners especially on really expensive cartridges - Rega do not recommend this.

I think no RCM can remove all the vinyl dust and playing records inevitably produces more. I first cleaned mine after 9 months of heavy playing. I log the number but haven’t added it up but over 500 LPs. Get a jewellers magnifying glass and check for black deposits on the stylus. It doesn’t improve SQ. Terry sells a kit now.

Phil

joerand posted:

silklee posted:

Anyway, should I let the liquid sit on the vinyl for a while before vacuuming it off?

 If you are attempting to clean mildew from a record then you need to use an enzymatic cleaner specifically designed for mildew and let the fluid sit for the specified time. Mildew is inherently difficult to remove from LPs and I've found it best to simply pass on records with mildew rather than attempt to salvage them. The very first thing I do when inspecting a used LP, before even removing it from the jacket, is crack the jacket open and sniff the contents. If it smells like mildew it's not worth my time. Mildew resulting from records being stored in damp conditions is obvious to the nose. Less obvious is light mildew due to a previous owner that blew onto the LP to remove dust. This mildew is due to saliva spatter. You'll probably have better luck removing the saliva spatter, but either way mildew is notoriously difficult to clean and tends to leave some level of audible pops. The other danger with mildewed LPs is that the jackets are likely infected and can serve as a potential breeding ground for the rest of your collection regardless of how well you clean the LP. Best to avoid bringing mildew home in the first place in spite of how rare or tempting a record may seem.

My uncle was about to ditch his collection of classic LPs, which had lain unplayed in a damp cellar for many years. I managed to intercept them, & discovered they were pretty mouldy and dirty, so I borrowed my dealer "Signals" Moth cleaner & went through the whole lot. The Moth cleaned them all perfectly, including the mould, using nothing more than Moth's own fluid.

I've since built my own Moth from a kit, but using thicker board so it's a fair bit quieter than the standard one. Weighs a ton mind...

After trying various cleaning methods over the years, i've concluded that as long as you're using a wet vacuum-type cleaner that can suck all the fluid off the record, then although some are more convenient and quicker to use the results are going to be much the same. I don't think you need fancy fluids either; Steve J's formula of 50:50 distilled water to IMS (Industrial Methylated Spirits, obtainable from B&Q) works a treat - no need for wetting agents. Into a new inner sleeve, job done.

Richard Dane posted:

I rather like the simplicity and utilitarian look of the PHK - and why pay extra for something that many already have - a good wet and dry vacuum cleaner.

 

Just yesterday I purchased a semi - industrial wet & dry vacuum cleaner from Srewfix their own brand Titan and for £39.99 connected up to the PHK it works great very powerful though so make sure the records secured tight.

tonym posted:

 

After trying various cleaning methods over the years, i've concluded that as long as you're using a wet vacuum-type cleaner that can suck all the fluid off the record, then although some are more convenient and quicker to use the results are going to be much the same. I don't think you need fancy fluids either; Steve J's formula of 50:50 distilled water to IMS (Industrial Methylated Spirits, obtainable from B&Q) works a treat - no need for wetting agents. Into a new inner sleeve, job done.

Tony, iirc Dr. Steve's formula has since been uprated to the medical grade bioethanol a couple of years ago when it became legally available from pharmacies without prescription. Apparently it maybe just as good but probably even better, and better value for money too. I'll be using it myself when my 20 year supply of B & Q's bioethanol fuel runs out 

La Hacienda Bioethanol fuel is available at all good B & Qs - £6 for 2 litre bottle.

Mix 50/50% with distilled water.

I buy my distilled water from Tesco which is only a cheap as chips quid or so for a 2.5 litre bottle.

Apparently; although the KM machines are up there with the best vinyl cleaners on the market, their own brand KM cleaning fluid is extraordinary expensive and not considered to be particularly anything special in practise.

I've been using a Keith Monks Omni Mk VII for past 3+ years with bioethanol + distilled water [de-ionised] formula which is working splendidly : )

Debs

Thanks Debs. I'm still using some of Steve's “Special Stuff” wot he gave me, but good to know about the bioethanol.

Fascinating thread, but my heartfelt thanks to you all for finally laying to rest a personal ghost! Up until fairly recently it had been my plan to revisit the vinyl days of my youth. I can afford it, an RP10 looks nice, and it might be fun sourcing the 3-400 albums I sold 30 years ago. Well, I dropped this casually into conversation with my better half, and 10 minutes later crept off the battlefield having been well and truly beaten. PTSD symptoms are starting to diminish, and I believe I will recover in time! Seriously, she objected largely on aesthetic grounds, and as she'd given way on the K6 speakers in particular, I thought I'd let the turntable go.

Up until today I still had tiny nagging regrets, but no longer. If, on top of having to get up every 15-20 minutes to turn the record over, one is expected to perform the arcane rituals described above, at God knows what expense, then I truly have been saved from a very expensive mistake. I'm sure you would all speak as one when extolling the sonic virtues of analog album vs digital streaming, but it's a treat I'm now fully prepared to forego.

Once again, my thanks to you all.

I like Richard have the Project VC-5, not expensive compared to KM. Very pleased with the results

tonym posted:

Thanks Debs. I'm still using some of Steve's “Special Stuff” wot he gave me, but good to know about the bioethanol.

Yes, same here. Still using the magic formula prescribed by the doctor. Hope he’s enjoying himself whatever he is up to these days.

Now did anyone mention Linn’s green sandpaper. All the rage a few years back but I could never bring myself to use it - least of all on my Kandid

Cleaned a couple of records earlier using my PHK/Screwfix RCM and then gave them a spin sounded wonderful 

Womack & Womack - Love Wars (The Composers) 1st press there is a sublime cover of The Stones - Angie on there which if you haven't heard you should and Gene Ammons - The Soulful Moods of (Analogue Productions remaster).

Ravenswood10 posted:

Now did anyone mention Linn’s green sandpaper. All the rage a few years back but I could never bring myself to use it - least of all on my Kandid

i use it all the time, be it on a humbler DV Te Kaitora Rua - its part of my stylus cleaning ritual... i haven't noticed any harm ...

enjoy

ken

Another green paper advocate here.

Bob the Builder posted:

Just yesterday I purchased a semi - industrial wet & dry vacuum cleaner from Srewfix their own brand Titan and for £39.99 connected up to the PHK it works great very powerful though so make sure the records secured tight.

Be careful when clamping the record, some types of labels are easily damaged. If the label is uncalendered, the nice matt finish may end up nice and shiny.

Not disastrous if your cleaning your favourite Shakatak album, but no joke if you’re cleaning a mint Decca SXL WBG, worth a couple of hundred pounds. I’ve done just that on my moth.

tonym posted:

I've since built my own Moth from a kit, but using thicker board so it's a fair bit quieter than the standard one. Weighs a ton mind...

You’re not wrong about the noise the Moth makes.

I also built a Moth, but used the recommended thickness chipboard for the box, so it’s very loud. Still, industrial grade ear buds and military grade ear defenders (as used by the Royal Artillery) do the job.

My wife complains every time I use it, because……..It frightens the cat.

Our ClearAudio Matrix cleaner sounds like a vacuum cleaner when in use. Mrs Z thinks I have finally taken up hoovering
Not sure if the noise or the notion of me hoovering is more disturbing 

fatcat posted:

tonym posted:

I've since built my own Moth from a kit, but using thicker board so it's a fair bit quieter than the standard one. Weighs a ton mind...

You’re not wrong about the noise the Moth makes.

I also built a Moth, but used the recommended thickness chipboard for the box, so it’s very loud. Still, industrial grade ear buds and military grade ear defenders (as used by the Royal Artillery) do the job.

My wife complains every time I use it, because……..It frightens the cat.

When you open that tap does beer come out?

I had a real problem record, my VPI made no difference with my usual 25% isopropanol, nor a mild detergent, it laughed at an audiodesk ultrasonic but a dose of nitty gritty enzyme cleaner followed by a rinse on the VPI did the trick.

I wonder about combining ultrasound and enzymes, whether the enzyme would be denatured by the sonic energy. The nitty gritty is too expensive to fill a tank with so that gets me wondering about a biological detergent. There are usually dire but unspecific warnings bandied about when anyone suggests such a thing but enzymes won’t work at the extremes of pH and there’s certainly no aggressive solvents present. I’ll be rinsing afterwards on the VPI so I think an experiment will have to be done, I have some disposable records of the reader digest sort to try it out on, initially without the ultrasound to see if the detergent is really such a problem. The biggest hurdle I can see is havng to listen to some of those records as it won’t be the better ones I’ll be using.

I bought an Okki Nokki about 2 years ago and although really pleased with improved sound I was getting I did not notice cleaning could add some clicks to new records I cleaned.  I researched extensively and found huge range of very strong opinions what technique/fluids worked best.  I’ve always followed green sandpaper advice and therefore avoided dusting records for last 20 years if possible. What has worked consistently well for me in recent months is to avoid dusting off records before clean, but apply distilled water and vacuum off, before scrubbing with L’art du son cleaning fluid.  I applied same logic why we rinse cars before shampoo to avoid scratches; best to have dirt free surface.  Results consistently good since then.  Removal of static means very little dust build up on stylus and records slide easily out of inner sleeve. Vinyl heaven....

HalfSwedeJohn posted:

I bought an Okki Nokki about 2 years ago and although really pleased with improved sound I was getting I did not notice cleaning could add some clicks to new records I cleaned.  I researched extensively and found huge range of very strong opinions what technique/fluids worked best.  I’ve always followed green sandpaper advice and therefore avoided dusting records for last 20 years if possible. What has worked consistently well for me in recent months is to avoid dusting off records before clean, but apply distilled water and vacuum off, before scrubbing with L’art du son cleaning fluid.  I applied same logic why we rinse cars before shampoo to avoid scratches; best to have dirt free surface.  Results consistently good since then.  Removal of static means very little dust build up on stylus and records slide easily out of inner sleeve. Vinyl heaven....

A vacuum record cleaning machine is the best "bang for your buck" vinyl accessory there is. If I had to go back to vinyl without a RCM, I wouldn't bother.

BB

I once  discussed the problem of new surface noise after cleaning with a  dealer. He  had noticed that some  records were quieter when  they were  played a second time after cleaning,  like some stuff wasn't being removed,  but was being moved to a more prominent place in the groove, where it would make more  noise than  it had before cleaning. Playing  the record might knock some  of that deeper into the  groove, resulting in a quiet record the second time it's played after cleaning. 

I would agree with your dealer. I’ve noticed playing records tends to help surface noise rather than aggravate it.  Interesting reading this thread at same time as current thread on tinnitus.  I suffer from mild tinnitus and have learnt  importance of tuning it out.  I feel the same about surface noise, and focusing on the music it becomes less intrusive.  It is biggest challenge though in long quiet sections in classical music.  Recording cleaning undoubtedly helps surface noise but I need to watch unwittingly I end up listening out more for surface noise to check on the success of my cleaning, and then it’s counter productive!

Drewy posted:

When you open that tap does beer come out?

Oh, you noticed!