The new uniti's and HDMI

David, the new Unitis use an intelligent bi-directional remote control that is paired to the unit -  so you probably can't replace it with a universal remote.

The new Uniti remotes are not IR either.  They are RF, so as Richard says, but for another reason too, you can't use a universal remote.

best

David

So I knew it had an RF remote but I just assumed it still had an IR receiver because, why take it away?

I was so surprised at the replies above that I emailed naim directly, who have confirmed that there is no IR receiver on the new unitis at all, nor is there any compatibility with universal remote controls. 

For me, this at least gives a pause for concern. Whatever new system I put together must be usable by my family when I’m out, and I often make this happen with a universal remote so that my wife can press “watch Blu-ray” and all the right components will turn on and go to the correct inputs with the correct buttons mapped on the remote. 

Correctly working CEC may mitigate this to some extent but it’s still not ideal. 

I can’t say I’m completely convinced that having the volume display on the remote makes up for the lack of IR control

am I alone in this concern?

It's not "why take it away?" because these are completely new designs, so nothing is there unless it's put there. Adding an infra red sensor would certainly complicate the design significantly and cost money.

I doubt that you are alone, but I do suspect there aren't too many of you out there and I haven't seen any other complaint about this feature on the Forum (but I may have missed one of course).

There are other advantages of having an RF remote.  You don't have to be able to see the unit to control it and you don't have to put your glasses on to see what the volume setting is at the other end of the room for example. Also if you have multiple units in the same location (rack), it's easy to use separate remotes to control them. But none of that helps you of course.

best

David

IIRC the new Unitis use a Zigbee system, which supposedly has lots of advantages over IR control.  A quick google search shows that we are beginning to see Zigbee +IR universal remotes, so possibly you will have just what you want.  As to how or even whether they are compatible I have no idea so maybe worth a mail to Naim for their input.

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So I appreciate that these are new units but why not add an IR receiver? They cost buttons and every other naim control component has them, including the statement pre-amp (and lets not forget pretty much every other hifi component). It would surprise me if it would add much complexity or cost, yet it would add significantly to it's ability integrate.

I do see the advantages of zigbee, in terms on not needing line of sight, and fancy 2 way functionality, but my TV has an RF remote with doesn't require line of sight and even displays a fancy mouse pointer on the screen but still includes an IR receiver and discrete IR commands, so I can send it a control which will only turn it on and only on (ie not a toggle) and another command which sets it to HDMI input 2 (not a cycle through the different inputs) and this can be tremendously useful.

Nevertheless, the atom (and presumably the star and nova) don't have IR receivers, so I'll have to consider that in my purchasing decision.

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In my email conversation today with Naim, I pointed out that Logitech sell a zigbee hub for their harmony remotes, and could they provide compatibility with that? the answers was that there are no plans to do so.

I guess I could go back a generation and get IR control, but then I lose HDMI connectivity and control...

Something to think about...

Incidentally, I also asked them about the HDMI volume issue I referenced above and they said it was a known issue with some TVs and is down to be looked into.

Zigbee is simply a personal network standard, not dissimilar is some ways to blue tooth, but is significantly more energy efficient and better suited for small message transfer... Zigbee devices can last yeas on batteries or even be kinetically powered, ie powered by the click or press of a button. Zigbee comes into its own in home automation, but when I spoke to Naim they had no plans for automation... Zigbee also has the advantage of better addressing to stop interference with neighbouring units .. infra red is fine but it is information limited and not that discriminiating... if you like Zigbee can be to infra red what infra red was to to ultrasonic. Zigbee works in the ISM bands, and for most implementations that is approximately the same space as 2.4 GHz Wi-fi.

Simon

I have always wished that Naim amps came with wired IP control that allowed you to plug an ethernet cable in the back and control volume with feedback.  I have an ethernet wired house and use Simple Control (ex Roomie) and it would be great if I could integrate IP volume control with everything else.  I have integrated IR control but it's pretty rudimentary - no feedback and hard to get just the right amount of increase or decrease in volume. 

Its interesting to muse... if more and more people use their home networks for multiple application types - such as real time control, media, TV, general web use etc then the standard of consumer home networking equipment and the software using the network will have to significantly rise so as to allow satisfactory operation in terms of responsiveness and usability as all these apps will be sharing a common or connected highway... typically this sort of config and setup, although foundation level at the enterprise level is often way out of reach at the domestic level. Much consumer type realtime and automation applications that I have seen seem to rely on the fact the consumer is not heavily using their home network - and perhaps quite poorly designed albeit simple to implement, that might need to change as more and more use their home networks for other things

Simon

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while home networks are certainly not "designed" as such, I'm not sure they need to be. I'd argue that the vast majority of home networks are barely used. the average broadband speed is under 23meg but even the cheapest router provides 100meg fast ethernet, often gig ethernet. I have 150meg broadband and even saturating that link, I can still copy files around my home network pretty quickly. streaming audio isn't likely to make a big impact, it doesn't use up too much, especially in an ages where I can flawlessly stream 4k video.

Now if you're talking about congestion in the wireless space, especially in built up areas then I'd agree, that's a bigger problem. Also, the quality of the free broadband routers can be pretty shaky, but that only applies to internet routed traffic. I use a pfsense router and it's been much better.

of course, we're going a touch off topic... 

I’m not necessarily looking for anything too complex - just the ability to do via basic IP control all the basic functions of a piece of equipment such as an amplifier.  In my experience a lot of control systems are TOO complicated - over-designed to the point where they will do absolutely everything EXCEPT what you want.  I certainly don’t want to have to call an engineer every time I need to add a piece of equipment of change a configuration. 

I use Simple Control (previously called Roomie) on an iPad and I like it because it can be as simple or as complex as you want it to be and with a bit of patience you can integrate the control of a lot of different things.  Equipment that comes with IP control built in is brilliant, especially as I am lucky enough to have Ethernet throughout the house so everything is wired and robust.  IR control is generally good too, except when it comes to volume control, which is imprecise on a touchscreen and when you have no feedback from the equipment.  

Hence my wish for IP control of my Naim amps, or even RS232 control if it allowed feedback.  I stream Bluesound into my Naim amps and am compelled to use the volume control on the Bluesound rather go direct into the amp and use it to control the volume, which would be the better way to do it.  I think the same would be true even if I were using dedicated Naim streamers, so it’s a second-best solution whichever way you look at it.  And in this day and age including IP control as standard doesn’t seem like such a big ask. 

You could swap the 282 for a 272 and get the IP control you are looking for.....

best

David

Yes but I like my 282, and will like a 252 when I can get one, and I also like my Bluesound with integrated Qobuz which Naim show no sign of integrating any more than they are likely to integrate IP control.  

Well I guess we will have to wait to see where the new platform goes next. At least in the meantime we can all enjoy the music.....

best

David

David Haworth posted:

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while home networks are certainly not "designed" as such, I'm not sure they need to be. I'd argue that the vast majority of home networks are barely used. the average broadband speed is under 23meg but even the cheapest router provides 100meg fast ethernet, often gig ethernet. I have 150meg broadband and even saturating that link, I can still copy files around my home network pretty quickly. streaming audio isn't likely to make a big impact, it doesn't use up too much, especially in an ages where I can flawlessly stream 4k video.

Now if you're talking about congestion in the wireless space, especially in built up areas then I'd agree, that's a bigger problem. Also, the quality of the free broadband routers can be pretty shaky, but that only applies to internet routed traffic. I use a pfsense router and it's been much better.

of course, we're going a touch off topic... 

David, you miss my point... this is not about bandwidth, it’s prioritization, timing, network adapter congestion and overhead management as well as resilience as well as protocols designed for real time usage and security.. most home networks on the end of a broadband link are absolutely trivial in demands... but as users use more and more types of applications that have increasing demands across a range of attributes that aren’t simply mostly reliant on consuming internet bandwidth , then the rich tapestry of TCP/IP protocols come into play that are used in many commercial, educational and industrial settings... that is what they were developed for .. but in the home for general low demand/complexity use you just don’t need these... and so consumer equipment that is built in a very price sensitive way, just doesnt support or handle these features... but if the demands from consumers increase then consumer equipment will need to up its game.. and as I say this is not about bandwidth.. and hopefully you can see why this is totally on topic and the advantages of using Zigbee over tcp/ip for the real time control...given the hassle that some have with the relatively trivial web protocol based UPnP/DLNA this seems eminently prudent on Naim’s part...

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I don't have a problem with Naim using zigbee, I'm just annoyed that they've not included an IR receiver in addition for compatibility. It's a bit like if a popular mobile phone company, with a big name in music would lose the 3.5mm headphone socket in their handsets.. I mean why abandon a simple, easy and cheap standard that everyone supports?

Still, as I said above, it's done, so I just have to work out if it (and the recent price rises) make the atom or star less interesting than, for example, a Lyngdorf TDAI2170 which I am also very interested in. I like the all digital philosophy which reminds me of the best AV system I ever had; a Meridian processor and DSP speakers. I also have no analogue sources and it's got a well regarded room correction system. It doesn't have any streaming though, and I liked the simplicity and broad compatibility of these new atom units with a variety of services.

Regarding home networks, this is interesting. priority usually only tends to be important when you have congestion. in the local network, I would expect to see very little congestion. Now you might see lots on the internet link and if you're streaming Spotify, tidal or internet radio then yeah, I can see how those might have an effect, but for streaming from a local nas, do you think that well configured, high end networking gear with have a noticeable effect?

David Haworth posted:

It's a bit like if a popular mobile phone company, with a big name in music would lose the 3.5mm headphone socket in their handsets.. I mean why abandon a simple, easy and cheap standard that everyone supports?

I too was irritated by Apple's decision to abandon the 3.5mm headphone socket, but yesterday my wife managed to drop her newish iPhone 7 into the toilet and it survived unharmed, partly because the removal of the headphone socket made it possible for Apple to make it waterproof.

There is often another side to every story!

best

David

David - presumably your Naim dealer will let you try the relevant new Uniti at home to see whether you can achieve the necessary control.

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Unfortunately, while I do own a harmony remote, I don't have one with the shiny hub, nor do I have the £100 zigbee expansion hub. Now if the new uniti's would be compatible with the zigbee hub, then I'd consider upgrading, but I'm not going to spend the thick end of £300 on the off-chance.

Incidentally, has anyone with a HDMI sporting uniti tried it with HDMI CEC yet? Interested to hear experiences?