Begone ethernet over Mains - (expectation management)

Edit : should have read

router > Airport Extreme base station > ethernet cable to Cisco switch > HDX / NDS + Airport Express.

This means that I can now run the music side of the Lan on a completely separate network from the router's provision of internet etc., (I think!) 

Hi Dave, I cannot say I have heard SQ improvements with the digital source after I retired my PoE but what scared me and compelled me to stop using them was a clearly audible noise picked up by my integrated amp’s MC phono input (not a hum noise by a sound like raindrops, which was accentuated when using more bandwidth, like when downloading something over the internet).  

In the beginning I thought it was a problem with the amp until I realized it was the power over mains adapters. Some warnings by Simon in Suffolk helped solidify the decision. 

Using paired AEs to connect the router and the NDX  ever since (Ethernet all the way not an option at this point).

Shurely shomeone elsh, other than the good DRPO, hash shome experiensh of thish to share? 

Dave, the amount of gain to SQ will vary enormously due to other variable factors (such as the amount other 'crud' you have flying around on the mains anyway and the amount of  other radiated RFI you have in your environment).  Do you use ferrite chokes on your cables?

One thing is for certain your bodily exposure to broadband low RF EMI will be substantially reduced now you're no longer sitting in the middle of a radiating loop antenna!

Thanks Huge, my real reason for posting, hence the second half of the thread title, was to garner opinion as to whether the change in the presentation was real, or imagined. 

One's perception of music changes on an almost daily basis, according to mood, tiredness, and a hundred other variables, so I was very aware of the possibility of expectation bias, following several hours hard work running an ethernet cable.

Good to read that there may well be an unexpected health benefit bonus, and no, I don't have any ferrite chokes fitted. 

Yes I believe there will be a real improvement in the sound quality and a real change in presentation, but how much of a change is very much an open question (could vary anywhere from almost insignificant to "wow!").

The chokes question will always be open to debate as there will always be people who write "I tried then and they did nothing" and other's who write "I tried them and that cleaned up the system wonderfully".  The thing is both can be right!  Again it depends on the amount of RFI floating about in you environment.

In my case I'm in the "I tried them and that cleaned up the system wonderfully" camp;  but YMMV!

One thing I would say is that I've found the general purpose clip on ferrites by Würt Elektronic (available from Farnell amongst others) to be more effective than other types from other manufacturers (and their data sheets back up this conclusion).

Oh dear, looks as if some further investigation into RFI is called for, which is fine, having already done the hard work part, running the ethernet cable.

Mind you, at first glance, it seems that some fairly specialised test equipment is required, so, for now, I'll maybe just get on with listening to the music. 

You've done the best thing Dave, getting rid of the Powerline adapters. Hate 'em with a passion for various reasons. 

Other stuff is really just icing on the cake and might be worth trying (Ferrite chokes just clip on to the cable)  when you have some time spare. I'd take your own advice for the moment 

dave marshall posted:

Shurely shomeone elsh, other than the good DRPO, hash shome experiensh of thish to share? 

Hi Dave, by removing the powerline adapters you are effectively removing a HF mush that will pervade your audio electronics and everything else as well as removing (in my opinion) a rather unhealthy, pervasive and persistent near field radiation emanating from the wiring in your house.... only derivates of  the RF modulation will be typically directly audible as DrPo attests on most audio equipment, although some wireless devices and radio devices may suffer more, but you should find very fine detail and natural ambience returns... it’s the sort of difference doing a high spec preamp upgrade may bring... but of course you will need the resolution to start with to hear that benefit... you are opening the window potentially further open... and removing the slightly dirty netting... but if the window is too small the benefit will be limited...

The other benefit for the digital home audio environment is that you should use ideally use WLAN or Ethernet.. these are the transmission methods that the apps are optimised for (latency, full duplex operation etc) .. the powerline adapters don’t provide Ethernet, but they effectively bridge two Ethernet segments with an RF link... and network performance won’t be optimal... including for the Naim streamer.

dave marshall posted:

Oh dear, looks as if some further investigation into RFI is called for, which is fine, having already done the hard work part, running the ethernet cable.

Mind you, at first glance, it seems that some fairly specialised test equipment is required, so, for now, I'll maybe just get on with listening to the music. 

Hi Dave, given the relative cost of split ferrites and the cost of reliable monitoring equipment for RFI (radiated and conducted), I'd just buy a load of ferrites and be done with it.
The cost of the monitoring equipment will likely be twice the cost of all the ferrites you'll ever need!

dave marshall posted:

Shurely shomeone elsh, other than the good DRPO, hash shome experiensh of thish to share? 

Hi Dave,  probably means not many forumites have switched from EoP adaptors to full ethernet.   My only experience was with a non-hifi friend who used them for home office work.    He bought an 'entertainment' centre with a DAB radio & was particularly unimpressed with DAB (& FM)   After on adaptor failed he replaced them with new ones (I don't know the make) & his DAB radio improved significantly.  As a result I've assumed that they can be RFI polluters whereas some (& maybe more recent designs) are not so bad.    He has since got a smart TV & had a small network installed between broadband hub, TV & office.  It cost just over £100 I believe.  

I recently changed over from poe to fully wired and have noticed a small improvement in SQ overall, most improvement is with FM/DAB radio. I have noticed that the  Superuniti and naim app now work without fail every time. I have banished the power line adapters to a dark cupboard and am now a firm believer in fully wired.

I changed from POE to Ethernet and can now stream Hi Res Meet me in London (192kHz) where as this would not buffer previously. I was only able to play it from a USB drive into the front of my ND5.  Tubular Bells which is also high res but lower def (48kHz)  has always played over my POE, so there seems to be a point at which POE does not adequately pass the signal. Aside from that I can't honestly say I have noticed any difference but I have also decorated the room too and the surfaces are a bit harder.

Mike

Just to be clear we are talking about replacing Power Line Adapters (i.e. sending Ethernet as modulated RF over the mains wiring) with proper Ethernet cabling; and not talking about POE, which is Power Over Ethernet - which sends low voltage electrical power to a remote Ethernet device using the Ethernet cabling.

Sorry for the ambiguous post above Huge, but yes that is what I was posting. So just to be clear I swapped from connecting my NAS to my ND5 by Netgear Power Line Adapters (so using the mains wiring) to having a Cat 6 cable run betewwen the two, The effect was that I was able to play Hi res (192kHz) when I had been unable before.