First buy without a demo.

hmmmm well before anything else I'd get a HCDR. cheaper than changing speakers, and the HC2//Olive HC/CB Hicap are also very very good.

You know what I'm talking about. It's easy enough to hear by feeding the 202 directly from the 200. (Have you tried it?)

Also change from NACA4 to NACA5.

It's a big leap of faith to change from Proac to ATC

and the ATC SCM19 is hardly a small speaker anyway. The small ATC speaker is the SCM11.

What do you mean your D15 is struggling?

For me, auditioning speakers early this year involved a  60 hour trip with 2 ferry journeys, 2 overnight stays and 800 miles of driving, it was worth it, but I was prepared to spend a lot. I am not suggesting that doing something is practicable for you, and you have presumably ruled it out - rather I am saying I sympathise with the difficulty imposed by location.

i don't know those specific speakers, but ATC does make very good speakers, specialising in a trying to achieve a neutral character, and from all I have read of them I think that in a small room that model is likely to be capable of doing well, though of course only you will know when you hear them if they sound right to you. However, I would have more confidence gambling on them than many others, and in the hopefully unlikely event that they prove unsuitable you can always move them on, albeit at a bit of a loss.

Agree the 19 is not a small speaker and needs some space to breath and sound it’s best, the smaller 11 or even 7 might well be a better match for that size room.

Mike

Proac Tablette 10. Proac sound you like, fabulous reviews, and will work in your room and with your equipment.

By struggling, I  mean they sound ok with anything simple - solo voice and guitar or an acoustic jazz trio, let's say, but throw anything more complicated with more volume - for instance fusion like Brand X or Billy Cobham or dome Led  Zeppellin and the reproduction becomes smeared, bass-less and with a nasty honk in the mid-range...

Perhaps I'm being impulsive. Let's see if I can get a lift!

What's an "HCDR"?

HiCap DR?

well the thing is (and I have seen this over and over again) when Naim owners use non-naim components and cables, you get a mongrel of an system and sometimes the mongrel causes more expenditure trying to fix what Naim designed properly in the first place. I've experienced this myself, seen this with friends, and then seen this with various members systems on this forum. One particular member was a bit angry lately (look at the Class A Naim amp thread), but hey ho, he is bi-amping a 200 and 250 DR, and then well.... Naim never in 40 years have ever recommended bi-amping, and then with 2 amps which sound quite different? 

This applies to cables too, some (but not all) non-Naim cables can turn a system into mongrel poo, so I would just listen to your 202/200 without a PSU and with NACA5 (not that there is anything wrong with NACA4 but still) and see if this fixes the problem.

analogmusic posted:

well the thing is (and I have seen this over and over again) when Naim owners use non-naim components and cables, you get a mongrel of an system and sometimes the mongrel causes more expenditure trying to fix what Naim designed properly in the first place.

This applies to cables too, so I would just 202/200 without a PSU and with NACA5 and see if this fixes the problem.

Pot, Kettle surely 

analogmusic posted:

well the thing is (and I have seen this over and over again) when Naim owners use non-naim components and cables, you get a mongrel of an system and sometimes the mongrel causes more expenditure trying to fix what Naim designed properly in the first place.

This applies to cables too, so I would just 202/200 without a PSU and with NACA5 and see if this fixes the problem.

So how does your mongrel system sound? 

I use a Genuine Naim PSU. That's all I am prepared to say 

Anything else is a breach of forum rules.

Guys I am only trying to help the OP, from buying speakers he never heard -which is NEVER a good idea.

Cut me some slack.

Using a Chord Dave DAC isn't changing a Naim amplifier,

but certain other "issues" in Naim official view, are not acceptable.

I agree with Clay. My speakers are ProAc Response 1.5. If I had to move the system to a smaller space without the risk of loosing the sound signature of my 1.5s, my clear choice would have been the ProAc Tabelletes 10.

Well, the sysem as it stands sounded perfect in a bigger room so I don't think the cable or the oddmanout box is the problem.

I do think my tendency to impulse could work to my detriment so it was worth coming back to this sea of wisdom and opinion... 

I don't think that the Tablette option is a solution per se, just because it's made by the same company - when I demm'd the D15's I also heard another of Proac's ported towers and in comparison, despite being more exensive, it sounded rubbish.

I'll keep the option in mind though. We'll see if it can be acheived if I don't like the ATC's.

I agree with the comments that the 19s are still likely to be too bit for such a small room, so the 11 or 7 might be a better match. Do you have the option to return them if they don't work for you - if not, I would consider the used market where you will not take such a big hit if you have to sell them yourself. 

Hicap DR might also be a nice upgrade, but I fail to see why it would help with your current issue!!

Agreed, this is not a power supply or a cable issue - weird that the thread got hijacked in that direction - it’s about the change of room and the inability of the existing set of speakers to work, as they had done before, in a smaller space.

IMHO both the Tablettes and the smaller ATCs would “work” in the smaller environment but whether they will do it for you is another thing. Does Gordon represent either brand and can he let you try some, even if it means a bit of a road trip on your part?

Gordon is the NAIM-accredited and ATC supplier in these parts. 

He's kindly suggested a dem at his residence so I'm arranging for transport.

He also does Spendor and Neat speakers so I'll ask for some equivalence and get a choice.

The nearest Proac dealer to me is at the other end of the country!

Mike1951 posted:

Gordon is the NAIM-accredited and ATC supplier in these parts. 

He's kindly suggested a dem at his residence so I'm arranging for transport.

He also does Spendor and Neat speakers so I'll ask for some equivalence and get a choice.

The nearest Proac dealer to me is at the other end of the country!

That does sound the best solution - and if in his house, maybe he has a room not too dissimilar from yours in size.

analogmusic posted:

 

Guys I am only trying to help the OP, from buying speakers he never heard -which is NEVER a good idea.

Cut me some slack.

 

Sorry Analog - i was just amused by your Mongrel system comment given your Chord and Vertere preferences 

well these are not unauthorised modifications to Naim hardware.

I might be chancing my arm, but here goes - going back to the OP question, buying unseen, I have little experience of Naim equipment except that I have a mate with a Naim set up that sounds great in his house, he once actually brought everything but the Fraim to me and it simply did not work. The point is that he had purchased all his equipment from one salesman, following him from one company to another and had changed some of his equipment purely on a telephone conversation. I have twice purchased blind, based on a magazine review because I had met the reviewer, had always liked his choice of music and sound. I was lucky it worked. My mate lives less than a quarter of a mile from me, his house is of the same design, built by the same builder, has the same electricity sub station. At the time he had spent more on his Fraim than I had on my complete sytem, but in my house, I preferred my system. 

So, my question is, having found a five star review, have you established that it was written by someone who in your experience has previously made choices and recommendations that you trust?

Mike1951 posted:

Since moving to Spain, the lack of hifi provision means that my nearest source is MILES (sorry, kilometres) away in Malaga. Gordon (by name) is also only a distributor not a shop.

My new listening space is considerably smaller than the previous one - only 3.2 metres by 2.9 and my Proac D15's are struggling.

So - new, smaller speakers. 

Due to difficult transport circumstances I'm having to take a leap of trust and buy them undemonstrated, something I've never done before.

Gordon recommended ATC SCM19's. All the reviews I've read describe their sonic characteristics as exactly what I'm looking for, with "What HiFi" awarding 5 stars.

My final stop-off point has been last year's thread on here and it all sounds perfecto.

Upstream will be: ND5XS/XP5XS/NAC202/Non-Naim PSU/NAPSC/NAP200/NACA4.

Unless anybody wants to stop me, I'll be on the blower tomorrow to get 'em in.

 

Understand your challenge. An upgrade of boxes I have done before without demo, but you now what you get 300 to 500. However Speakers is risky. Given your circumstances also think about room acoustics, very often overlooked.

notnaim man posted:

So, my question is, having found a five star review, have you established that it was written by someone who in your experience has previously made choices and recommendations that you trust?

The only blind purchase I ever made was a pair of speakers, and although it wasn't my motivation for choosing them, they did have an extremely favourable review in What HiFi. They sounded truly awful, so much so that I thought they must have been faulty. I took them to a dealer, and we listened to them in his listening room, with much better amplification. Guess what, they sounded bad there, too. Fortunately, I only bought them because they were cheap, and I could sell them on for no loss - which I promptly did. If I'd paid full price for them with no chance to return them, I'd have been pretty miffed. 

Don't go for the 19s with that amp combo.  So no, I have never heard a 202/200 or the ATC 19s, but I have run a serviced olive 250 on the ATC 7s, ATC 11s and ProAc Tab 10s.  The 250 was just up to the task of the 11s, so that leads me to think a 200 on 19s is not going to be a long-term winner, let alone a 200 on the 11s.  That said, the Tab 10s and ATC 7s are both awesome and will deliver the goods as you move up the amp chain.  If you are sold on the ATC sound (and who can blame you?) I would suggest erring on the side of going low with the 7s.  The tweeter is outrageously good and with a 200 they will not leave you second guessing whether you have enough put enough power behind them.  I really think if you go for the 19s you may be asking for trouble.  

Oh, and that'll be 50 push ups for running a non-Naim power supply on your preamp.

Hopefully your audition at the dealer's house will allow you to assess the SCm19 against other speakers, including the smaller ATCs. If the dealer doesn't have a 200, take yours for reference.

With respect to the 200 and its suitability which has been questioned, one consideration may be whether a future upgrade of the amp is a realistic possibility. If not, you have to judge with the 200, but otherwise hear what you expect you might go for, and, should the 200 be less than ideal,  you can decide if nevertheless it might be the right option knowing you will upgrade in the future.

I was listening to some of the ATC range last weekend at the Acoustica ATC day (Chester) and was well impressed by what ATC manage to do with music presentation, so much so that I have a pair of the 100's arriving for a home dem next week (comparing to B&W 802 D2's).  IF it's not practical to dem your choice from the ATC range, Mike, and you have to buy blind then, from what I've heard of ATC, there's a better than evens chance you'll be pleased with what you hear.

Now some folk will say a 'better than evens' chance that you'll like them is no way to buy speakers, and they'd be absolutely right.  So I think what I'd do if I'd moved to Spain (which is something I mention to SWMBO from time to time), is that I'd book myself a flight back home for a couple of days to  1) see family & friends  and 2) arrange a dem with my favourite UK dealer  (or vice versa).  I'm not suggesting for a minute that you ask your UK dealer to ship to Spain for you (even though mine regularly does ship fleabay stuff around Europe) because this would surely/probably contravene ATC's territory/dealer arrangements and upset young Gorden in Malaga.  But if I bought speakers in the UK and then had them shipped around Europe, I'm thinking my conscience would be clear ( and my dealer's franchise would not be jeopardised.  Of course Malaga might be off limits for a while if Gordon found out).

I'm hearing sharp intakes of disapproving breath at the hint of dealer subtifuge, but from where I stand, getting my hands on the right mix of audio equipment is a task that demands 'out of the box' thinking where dealer loyalty drops to second place in the priority list, right below achieving my audio nirvana.  Call me unprincipled if you will, but at my age...  I can live with it 

Im with those who believe the 200/scm19 is not going to be a good match

If you have a Proac dealer in Spain, get him if possible, to send you his Tab 10 demo pair, maybe with a few weeks rights of return if he not just send them unpaid, perhaps you know each other ? Unfortunately the new Tablettes are biwire.

Maybe a revision of source is in the cards etc..but it was speakers you wanted, my guess the scm11 will be a better choice for you than scm19 and certainly a great performer.

I had the scm7 and they were not up to an XS, far from