NDS is suppressed by CDS-2

My experience was that CD555 (with 2*555) was different, but not necessarily better, than NDS on 16bit material. 24bit made the move a no brainer, for me. And of course the access to the music is the icing on the cake.

Try the USB input on your NDS.

It could be interesting for you to demo Ndac and use the 555 on that. I have not seriously compared ndac to nds, but at least one forum member has ppreferred that setup. You will need an extra streamer for netradio if you need that, but it does not have to be an expensive one. I cannot remember if the core supports the streaming services or if it is stripped down to a upnp server with spdif out. 

Have you tried removing the +iFi iPower out of the equation?

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Someone who sees things as me.  Sounds like I’m exaggerating and possibly I am but in my experience my CDS3 blows away the NDS with WAV. 

Strat, from my experience reading your assessments have always been above par. Have you found NDS in any configuration, or source better than CDS3?

Charles   

David O'Higgins posted:

My experience was that CD555 (with 2*555) was different, but not necessarily better, than NDS on 16bit material. 24bit made the move a no brainer, for me. And of course the access to the music is the icing on the cake.

David, how much 24-bit material are you accessing? Has it become mainstay of your listening? I ask this because I am also debating NDS as inevitable choice, though I'm quite comfortable with my CDs.

Charles   

CXF04 posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Someone who sees things as me.  Sounds like I’m exaggerating and possibly I am but in my experience my CDS3 blows away the NDS with WAV. 

Strat, from my experience reading your assessments have always been above par. Have you found NDS in any configuration, or source better than CDS3?

Charles   

Charles - of course it’s the definition of better?   I think to summarise I’ve always thought the NDS more svelt and lacking the visceral qualities of the CDS3 and indeed my TT.  However some qualification is required in that on  the majority of occasions I’ve heard the NDS it’s been through Sopras which as good as they are are not my thing.  But when I demo’d Kudos the CDS3 still did more for me.  

But as ever all imo.  

Regards,

Lindsay

FOA, thanks for your best effort and providing top motivational ideas, it's really helpful.

OK. Let's continue:
1.  I demoed the NDS before purchasing it (another NDS), it was nice. The problem with the NDS is that it's really impressive for 2-4 hours,
big instruments in the room, lively & organic sound, but after a while it's just boring, no focus, no depth, not even close to the CDP.
2. I swapped the inputs on the NAC - no difference. I've also disconnected all other components (LP12, CDS-2, NAT 01, etc.)
3. Just got the Chord Signature ethernet cable (to replace the C-stream from Uniti Core to switch) - some difference, same character.
Talked with my dealer today, he says it's not the Burndy cables because my system is treated very carefully. It must be something in the
router-switch-cables area.
4. I removed the iFi iPower - the HF are better, less edgy, but much higher noise floor, and a messier soundstage.
5. I tried the USB stick (Sandisk) - it was ok, more grip, more dynamics  and better focus, but the instruments were not pretty, it was a vulgar sound.
6. I tried the DC1 (naim's digital cable) between the Uniti Core and NDS - presentation is more like the CDP but not entirely, and the instruments were
not pretty (less natural).
7. When using the network the instruments are most natural & organic (very important especially for me, listening 90% of the time to classical music), but the CDP
is doing a better job in that area - almost effortlessly.
8. Most ridicules thing is that I took a LG DVD player and connected it to the NAC 552 with RCA-RCA interconnects and played some discs.
Although it was rubbish in terms of naturalness, dynamics, grip, the sense of the CDS-2 was there, the presentation of the instruments, the silence 
in-between the notes, the ability to place each player in the room - focus.

The NDS smears the soundstage; when a piano is playing, I hear some keys from the right, and some from the left, some above others,
it gets me crazy, because it's not a piano any more, it's organic (more than the CDS-2), and natural (less than the CDS-2), and big (much more than the CDS-2), but you can't put the finger into the presentation and say "yeah, the pianist's hand is there now", which the TT and the CDP are doing effortlessly. The NAT 01 tuner is also superb (25 years old, never have been serviced).

BP.

Do you keep the NDS powered up 24/7?

Where is NDS in the stack? This sounds like the problem another forum member had with his NDS until he moved it from sitting atop the 555PS and gave it some space underneath and away from the power supplies.

The NDS generates a lot of low-level detail that can smear when set-up is not right. You think better means you can put it anywhere and it is less sensitive to set-up but the opposite is the case I've always found.

I've heard NDS that went from 'nice' and lackluster to stunning musical clarity after a fraim-rebuild.

May not be the problem but in one system it was. Nothing wrong with the NDS just system set-up was making the low-level detail of the NDS become smeared and it could be described as you have stated.

Just some ideas to investigate.

DB.

Has anyone ever listed the number of setup details and options one faces as long as he gets up the Naim ladder? I wonder that after one has searched [the search function!!!], found, put int order, understood, applied, tried, verified, compared all the possible adjustments from the strain on the cables' collars to the relative position of boxes to the level of anything to the torque of the drivers' bolts to that of the spikes of each shelf of the Fraim, to where to place a PSU that costs more than whatever box it's plugged to, from external DACs (applied to streamers costing like they had the best DAC on Earth aboard already) to CDPs - spending nights deciding if the PSU is better plugged to the CDP or to the DAC, making anyway part of one of the costly boxes unused and dead – I wonder that anyone who has spent time to do this, plus dressing the cables and moved the speakers by millimeters in a 40 mt.2 room until the image gels, still has time and force to play some music and enjoy it.

You know what I think? That – paradoxical and absurd as it may sound – the costlier and posher the gear, it should be bought by the most rich and ignorant, those who don't give a s*it about shades in performances; and those who really care about music should stick to the entry levels.

Gear has to be re-distributed in this world: and the idea that the more one loves and thinks he understands music, the more he deserves having costlier and better gear, abandoned forever. It's pure bulls*it, and so far has only caused a number of people to flush some of their lives' precious time down the toilet.

Happily yours

M.

Yes, NDS powered 24/7.

DB, I tried various system set-ups including NDS on top/under the 552 head unit, with or without space (extra shelf), above the brain/brawn stack, etc.
It changes things quite dramatically but the character of the NDS is the same.

Don't get me wrong - the NDS sounds good, I think I get the sound that it is capable of, but I don't like the huge untidy presentation for long listening sessions, and when I compare the sonic result to the well known CDP, the latter is far superior with the same bits.

I think Max has a point.

BP.

The NDS is good and doesn’t even seem like it’s trying. There’s nothing obvious about it, it’s just bloody good. I think you know what I mean

BPhotographer posted:

Yes, NDS powered 24/7.

DB, I tried various system set-ups including NDS on top/under the 552 head unit, with or without space (extra shelf), above the brain/brawn stack, etc.
It changes things quite dramatically but the character of the NDS is the same.

Don't get me wrong - the NDS sounds good, I think I get the sound that it is capable of, but I don't like the huge untidy presentation for long listening sessions, and when I compare the sonic result to the well known CDP, the latter is far superior with the same bits.

I think Max has a point.

BP.

when i bought the nds about 2 years ago, i used common lan cables and even straight from the router:  i found my past cdx2/ xps2 more engaging and organic.

Much better lan cables and a dedicated switch improved by 15% the sound.  But the biggest changes were optical bridge ( lan isolation) and cisco 2960 switch. The optical bridge opened quite dramatically the soundstage, gave more fluidity and true and natural tone colors to the sound. The cisco improved the drive, dynamics and bass.

Some will argue than lan isolation ( on linear ps) is just a tweak or even not good. But a lot also, like me, find it very beneficial. Not only on this forum also....

For around 300GBP,  not a lot, you can add a lan isolator ( acoustic revive, optical bridge, etalon isolator) and a cisco 2960 used switch:   it will give you a real boost in sound quality.

Today, my cdx2/xps 2 is far behind.  It is worth trying that, and you can return them if not satisfied.

I think you should take note of what DB says. I’d go a bit further and narrow it down to where the 500 PS is in relation to the NDS power supplies. If they are close to the 500 PS and the CDP’s is not that must tell you something. Likewise the 500PS needs to be kept away from the 552Ps. With all those PSs it’s a nightmare!

Phil

Max_B posted:

Has anyone ever listed the number of setup details and options one faces as long as he gets up the Naim ladder? I wonder that after one has searched [the search function!!!], found, put int order, understood, applied, tried, verified, compared all the possible adjustments from the strain on the cables' collars to the relative position of boxes to the level of anything to the torque of the drivers' bolts to that of the spikes of each shelf of the Fraim, to where to place a PSU that costs more than whatever box it's plugged to, from external DACs (applied to streamers costing like they had the best DAC on Earth aboard already) to CDPs - spending nights deciding if the PSU is better plugged to the CDP or to the DAC, making anyway part of one of the costly boxes unused and dead – I wonder that anyone who has spent time to do this, plus dressing the cables and moved the speakers by millimeters in a 40 mt.2 room until the image gels, still has time and force to play some music and enjoy it.

You know what I think? That – paradoxical and absurd as it may sound – the costlier and posher the gear, it should be bought by the most rich and ignorant, those who don't give a s*it about shades in performances; and those who really care about music should stick to the entry levels.

Gear has to be re-distributed in this world: and the idea that the more one loves and thinks he understands music, the more he deserves having costlier and better gear, abandoned forever. It's pure bulls*it, and so far has only caused a number of people to flush some of their lives' precious time down the toilet.

Happily yours

M.

Have you tried? All the Naim madness seem to work, and also madness found out from members of the forum, like use the snaxo without the closure! Cost 0 but a gain in sq. If you do not like Naim setup with the drawbacks of many boxes there are many cheap ways to get a borring music presentation, and also very good alternatives to Naim. For some of us the lego approach to building up a Naim system over many years while playing music works fine. A rich person would walk into whatever shop he came by and buy whatever was displayed and have it setup. If she or he would enjoy it, forget about it, or brag about it nobody knows.

Claus

Alba1320 posted:

Does your DVD player have a S/PDIF output? If so, you could connect it to the NDS, using the latter as a DAC, for 'direct' CD replay, thus removing the network 'stuff' (and digital files) from the equation, to see what you think of the performance on offer from the NDS with CDs.

Ultimately, if you've ruled out all of the possible problems, it may be that, longer term, you are just not finding the NDS to your satisfaction?

That's an excellent suggestion. I tried it and it's better than the USB stick/UnitiCore & S/PDIF/UnitiCore & network.
I used naim's DC1 cable, and got "that" cd thing, the instruments were not the most natural sounding but fuller sound, drama, and order were back.
The CDS-2 is still the best for digital replay in my system because of it's natural sounding and do all the above in better way, including instruments' weight.

Interesting. I might think now that the NDS's dac is OK, the data transfer via naim's cable is OK so the problem is the hard disk/rips.
Maybe I'm just loving the extra errors that the transport can't restore, I don't know, it just sounds more real, like the TT...
Maybe the NDS is too perfect - the bits are perfect, the lan is perfect, it's too hi-fi though.

DREWY, I know what you mean...

BP.

French Rooster posted:

BPhotographer posted:

Yes, NDS powered 24/7.

DB, I tried various system set-ups including NDS on top/under the 552 head unit, with or without space (extra shelf), above the brain/brawn stack, etc.
It changes things quite dramatically but the character of the NDS is the same.

Don't get me wrong - the NDS sounds good, I think I get the sound that it is capable of, but I don't like the huge untidy presentation for long listening sessions, and when I compare the sonic result to the well known CDP, the latter is far superior with the same bits.

I think Max has a point.

BP.

when i bought the nds about 2 years ago, i used common lan cables and even straight from the router:  i found my past cdx2/ xps2 more engaging and organic.

Much better lan cables and a dedicated switch improved by 15% the sound.  But the biggest changes were optical bridge ( lan isolation) and cisco 2960 switch. The optical bridge opened quite dramatically the soundstage, gave more fluidity and true and natural tone colors to the sound. The cisco improved the drive, dynamics and bass.

Some will argue than lan isolation ( on linear ps) is just a tweak or even not good. But a lot also, like me, find it very beneficial. Not only on this forum also....

For around 300GBP,  not a lot, you can add a lan isolator ( acoustic revive, optical bridge, etalon isolator) and a cisco 2960 used switch:   it will give you a real boost in sound quality.

Today, my cdx2/xps 2 is far behind.  It is worth trying that, and you can return them if not satisfied.

 

 

 

Thanks. I wanted to try the lan isolators but didn't go for it. I'll try them.`

BP.

Filipe posted:

I think you should take note of what DB says. I’d go a bit further and narrow it down to where the 500 PS is in relation to the NDS power supplies. If they are close to the 500 PS and the CDP’s is not that must tell you something. Likewise the 500PS needs to be kept away from the 552Ps. With all those PSs it’s a nightmare!

Phil

Phil, Thanks.
My next system set-up is going to be something with space between 552PS and 500PS (500PS at the bottom), as DB suggested in his own subject: "Naim's Torque".

BP.

BPhotographer posted:

Yes, NDS powered 24/7.

DB, I tried various system set-ups including NDS on top/under the 552 head unit, with or without space (extra shelf), above the brain/brawn stack, etc.
It changes things quite dramatically but the character of the NDS is the same.

Don't get me wrong - the NDS sounds good, I think I get the sound that it is capable of, but I don't like the huge untidy presentation for long listening sessions, and when I compare the sonic result to the well known CDP, the latter is far superior with the same bits.

I think Max has a point.

BP.

It seems that you do not like the sound, so unless a magical tweak can be performed it may just be that you do not like the nds sound. If possible I would have your dealer on a visit to hear if he thinks the setup is as it should be. I still think ndac is an alternative you should try if possible.b

Claus  

You could start playing from a usb stick and disconnect the ethernet cable. I suppose this would not cause the nds to stop playing, and you would be able to hear if something  nasty is coming from the network.

Claus-Thoegersen posted:

Max_B posted:

Has anyone ever listed the number of setup details and options one faces as long as he gets up the Naim ladder? I wonder that after one has searched [the search function!!!], found, put int order, understood, applied, tried, verified, compared all the possible adjustments from the strain on the cables' collars to the relative position of boxes to the level of anything to the torque of the drivers' bolts to that of the spikes of each shelf of the Fraim, to where to place a PSU that costs more than whatever box it's plugged to, from external DACs (applied to streamers costing like they had the best DAC on Earth aboard already) to CDPs - spending nights deciding if the PSU is better plugged to the CDP or to the DAC, making anyway part of one of the costly boxes unused and dead – I wonder that anyone who has spent time to do this, plus dressing the cables and moved the speakers by millimeters in a 40 mt.2 room until the image gels, still has time and force to play some music and enjoy it.

You know what I think? That – paradoxical and absurd as it may sound – the costlier and posher the gear, it should be bought by the most rich and ignorant, those who don't give a s*it about shades in performances; and those who really care about music should stick to the entry levels.

Gear has to be re-distributed in this world: and the idea that the more one loves and thinks he understands music, the more he deserves having costlier and better gear, abandoned forever. It's pure bulls*it, and so far has only caused a number of people to flush some of their lives' precious time down the toilet.

Happily yours

M.

 

Have you tried? All the Naim madness seem to work, and also madness found out from members of the forum, like use the snaxo without the closure! Cost 0 but a gain in sq. If you do not like Naim setup with the drawbacks of many boxes there are many cheap ways to get a borring music presentation, and also very good alternatives to Naim. For some of us the lego approach to building up a Naim system over many years while playing music works fine. A rich person would walk into whatever shop he came by and buy whatever was displayed and have it setup. If she or he would enjoy it, forget about it, or brag about it nobody knows.

Claus

 

Claus, I don't like the system. Yes, it's special, and looks awesome, and sounds awesome (without the NDS ) but I don't like it.
I do like music, and when it comes with great sound - it's a double happy listener.
It's nice to go sometimes to hi-fi events, meet some audiophiles, but most of the time you're alone in front of your system, doing what? play music.
I want to listen to music instead of tweaking the NDS, believe me.
Putting a CD in the CDS-2 which sounds far superior to the NDS - it seems the better way.
The NDS is comfortable.

BP.

Claus-Thoegersen posted:

You could start playing from a usb stick and disconnect the ethernet cable. I suppose this would not cause the nds to stop playing, and you would be able to hear if something  nasty is coming from the network.

I tried that, not a big difference with/without the ethernet cable.

BP.

I'm not the first person to prefer the CD player over streaming. I know Darke Bear also prefer's his CD555.
It’s been many years since most of you sold your CD555/CDS3/CDS2 for a NDS, so you may be missing something…

I'm not crazy, but most of you get such an amazing sound from your NDS so you can’t help but wonder if something is amiss.

BP.

BPhotographer posted:

I'm not the first person to prefer the CD player over streaming. I know Darke Bear also prefer's his CD555.
It’s been many years since most of you sold your CD555/CDS3/CDS2 for a NDS, so you may be missing something…

I'm not crazy, but most of you get such an amazing sound from your NDS so you can’t help but wonder if something is amiss.

BP.

Agreed