NDS is suppressed by CDS-2

Others may think they get an amazing sound, but it still might not be to your taste. It baffles me why some people get so excited about the streaming or cd solutions and which is best. If you prefer the CDS2 to the NDS then you prefer it, and that’s that. I wonder why you bought the NDS, which with its power supply is not exactly cheap, when you already had the CDS2 and continue to use it. If the NDS sounds less than good, it would be worth speaking to your dealer and maybe sending it to Naim to be checked. At least, you could borrow another set of burndies, given that they may be the/an issue. If the NDS remains disappointing you can then sell it. 

Perhaps the answer is simple, the CDS2 is better than the NDS.

IMO, it’s certainly better than the nDaC. I spent 9 months comparing the two, plus I made quite few other people do the comparison. Not one person preferred the NdAc.

In the end my wife got so fed up, she said, Look, just accept it, it’s a load of rubbish (referring to the ndac, which of coarse it isn’t).

The advantage a CD player has over a DAC/Streamer/Transport is everything in the chain, from spinning the disc to the analogue output is predetermined by the designer and can’t be interfered with/altered by the user. And a lot of time, effort and cost went into designing the CDS2.

With a DAC/Streamer/Transport, there’s so many variables involved, with so many opportunities to screw up the sound. (wrong type of router, switch, network cable, ferrite clamps, usb cable, coax spdif cable, connectors and power supplies for the mentioned devices, and of course not enough taps )

BPhotographer posted:

Claus-Thoegersen posted:

You could start playing from a usb stick and disconnect the ethernet cable. I suppose this would not cause the nds to stop playing, and you would be able to hear if something  nasty is coming from the network.

I tried that, not a big difference with/without the ethernet cable.

BP.

yes not a big difference.  I tried a lot too and was a bit disappointed by the nds too: more details, more open, but not the involvement and urgency of the cdx2/ xps2.  I wanted to sell it and take a cd555 instead.   But the optical bridge on big linear ps and the cisco 2960 changed my mind on the nds:  it was a magical step for little money!

BPhotographer posted:

Alba1320 posted:

... thus removing the network 'stuff' ... from the equation...

 

That's an excellent suggestion. I tried it and it's better than the USB stick/UnitiCore & S/PDIF/UnitiCore & network.

Interesting. I might think now that the NDS's dac is OK, the data transfer via naim's cable is OK so the problem is the hard disk/rips.
BP.

Your Network as a possible cause? Would it be possible for you to trial a Melco player feeding the NDS directly so that you get to take the variable of your Network out of the equation? 

Well. I didn't think two people would be proving my point within 2 minutes.

Max_B posted:

 

You know what I think? That – paradoxical and absurd as it may sound – the costlier and posher the gear, it should be bought by the most rich and ignorant, those who don't give a s*it about shades in performances; and those who really care about music should stick to the entry levels.

Gear has to be re-distributed in this world: and the idea that the more one loves and thinks he understands music, the more he deserves having costlier and better gear, abandoned forever. It's pure bulls*it, and so far has only caused a number of people to flush some of their lives' precious time down the toilet.

Happily yours

M.

Max,

This is a very serious matter and we better leave it to the Hi Fi police to investigate. If their findings will show clearly that 20 years old NAIM gear is superior to the top current one, it might start a new thrilling trend of down-grading for the purpose of a achieving  a better sound, not to mention a healthier state of mind..

H.

BPhotographer posted:

I'm not the first person to prefer the CD player over streaming. I know Darke Bear also prefer's his CD555.
It’s been many years since most of you sold your CD555/CDS3/CDS2 for a NDS, so you may be missing something…

I'm not crazy, but most of you get such an amazing sound from your NDS so you can’t help but wonder if something is amiss.

I do still use and on balance prefer my CD555 against the NDS I home demoed a few years ago. They were close and I'd say they both did different things well, but not what each other did well.

The CD555 was more open and dynamic with greater clarity and generated a feeling of confident handling of anything it played that puts me at ease, which I've become used to getting. But it can tend toward being a bit stark at times and possibly a bit uneven when compared to NDS - both using 2x555PS DR.

The CDS had more correct warmth and a seamless quality that I liked and did do low-level subtle detail well. But the sheer confidence and percussive capability of the CD555 I found superior and will not part with.

I found myself liking both systems in different ways and even considered purchasing the NDS to use alongside my CD555, but in the end I decided to stick with the Devil I knew. If I can get the qualities of the NDS I liked and not part with the CD555 capabilities and move the overall replay quality a bit beyond both sources then it will be the device for me when it happens.

Since then I hear that the NDS seems to have improved in SQ and I also hear what external re-clocking and clean network devices do to lift performance, so the gap may be a lot closer now or even have the NDS ahead more.

It did and does not help that I do not rate modern remasters and most new masters after year 2000 or so very good, no matter what final bit-rate and bit-depth format they are rendered into. The older masters done on older equipment and possibly with more care sound more immediate and insightfully musical to me even via CD, so that removed one of the drivers that would have made me consider streaming. If old CD (for me) still works then a good CD player still has its place and the no-nonsense operation pleases too.

But I'll probably end-up with a streaming source when I hear the CD555 properly surpassed.

Not sure it helps the OP but another perspective.

DB.

Like my friend DB, I am a staunch advocate of the CD555 - having yet to hear any digital source I prefer. The last word of the last sentence being the pertinent one.

I was present at my dealer Signals for a very interesting A/B comparison of CD555 versus NDS - both using one identical 555PS (pre DR days). I would say that the presentation was simply different and preference could swing on an individual recording.

Do Naim CD players sound more analogue than modern streaming devices? Is that a by-product of them being tuned for the recording/mastering flavour of their era?

Modern streaming devices seem sometimes to cope better with more compressed modern mastering of popular music, to these ears.

As ever; we simply have to go with what works for the individual and their chosen music. Why do some of us 'get' vinyl and some do not?

Illogical, Captain.

John.

Darke Bear posted:

But I'll probably end-up with a streaming source when I hear the CD555 properly surpassed.

You've reminded me of Linn saying they would come out with a CD player when they could make one which outperformed the Rega Planar 3   :-)

I have yet to hear any streaming format that can better the CD555, as a matter of fact, I have yet to hear any streaming format that can better the CDX2. Bare or with a PS! 

It's not that streaming sounds less good, it is what it is, pretty simple really. CD replay, just like vinyl replay, at least every time I have compared it to any streaming format, sounded faster,more open, dynamic, and three dimensional- transparent.

Having just read this entire thread I agree the OP either prefers CD replay or the NDS and/or burndies need to be factory checked.

In my experience my bare NDX sounded as good as my CDS3/XPSDR. After taking 12 months trying to convince myself it can't be so, I sold the CDS3 while I could.

I replaced my CD555 with the NDS without regret, everything sounded better.  I've improved my NDS over the last few years by adding a second 555 power supply, Chord Music IC, Chord Sarum TA Ethernet, linear power supplies for the U-Serve, NAS and switch.  You're not the first NDS owner to complain about its performance vs CD and all I can suggest is you send it back to the factory for evaluation.  Sounds like you have a solid set-up... your NDS should be producing the best sound, period.  

@BHPhotographer

Where is the music stored? The music sounded pretty lifeless to me, even with a UnitiServe-SSD when the music was stored on a Synology NAS. The move to a QNAP NAS made a big difference - music had emotions for the first time.

In addition to that, I'm not sure how your home network is setup. A lot of noise was being injected in my home network from the Comcast cable modem - had to isolate that too - here's the crazy way my home network is setup.

a) A network router, Comcast Modem and an Ethernet switch (Netgear) - all plugged into a TrippLite Isobar Ultra Power Strip. This is a highly rated powerstrip - and fairly cheap ($60). For the ethernet switch, I got the latest versions - the current - 1 version has capacitors in it, while the current one's dont. The new ones are quiter - and don't put gunk into your network. I've also got the iFi power adapter on the switch and maybe the modem (don't recall). All of this is in the laundry room.

b)  he UnitiServe SSD playing music stored on the QNAP Nas (TS 453A) sounds awesome. The NAS and the UnitiServe were both again plugged into a TrippLite Ultra powerstrip - in the loft. Might have used the ifi or not - I recall the ifi deadening the music on this ethernet switch (that connected the unitiserve, nas and plugged into the wall).

c) NDS plugged straigth into the wall.

BPhotographer posted:

I think Max has a point.

BP.

Thanks. Naim is one of those rare companies that instead of building plain clones of everything, then pumping them up in some parts to create to 'top end' level of gear, works on excellence then transfers the economically usable results of research on top models to the lesser ones. This makes more 'plug and play' gear comparatively more enjoyable than that needing afternoons on one's knees to level a screw or smoothing a hose carrying only power. 

Claus-Thoegersen posted:

Max_B posted:

Has anyone ever listed the number of setup details and options one faces as long as he gets up the Naim ladder? I wonder that after one has searched [the search function!!!], found, put int order, understood, applied, tried, verified, compared all the possible adjustments from the strain on the cables' collars to the relative position of boxes to the level of anything to the torque of the drivers' bolts to that of the spikes of each shelf of the Fraim, to where to place a PSU that costs more than whatever box it's plugged to, from external DACs (applied to streamers costing like they had the best DAC on Earth aboard already) to CDPs - spending nights deciding if the PSU is better plugged to the CDP or to the DAC, making anyway part of one of the costly boxes unused and dead – I wonder that anyone who has spent time to do this, plus dressing the cables and moved the speakers by millimeters in a 40 mt.2 room until the image gels, still has time and force to play some music and enjoy it.

You know what I think? That – paradoxical and absurd as it may sound – the costlier and posher the gear, it should be bought by the most rich and ignorant, those who don't give a s*it about shades in performances; and those who really care about music should stick to the entry levels.

Gear has to be re-distributed in this world: and the idea that the more one loves and thinks he understands music, the more he deserves having costlier and better gear, abandoned forever. It's pure bulls*it, and so far has only caused a number of people to flush some of their lives' precious time down the toilet.

Happily yours

M.

 

Have you tried? All the Naim madness seem to work, and also madness found out from members of the forum, like use the snaxo without the closure! Cost 0 but a gain in sq. If you do not like Naim setup with the drawbacks of many boxes there are many cheap ways to get a borring music presentation, and also very good alternatives to Naim. For some of us the lego approach to building up a Naim system over many years while playing music works fine. A rich person would walk into whatever shop he came by and buy whatever was displayed and have it setup. If she or he would enjoy it, forget about it, or brag about it nobody knows.

Claus

 

Yes, I have. Now, what to reply? If I say that I can hear no difference keeping the wires touching the floor or being suspended, or that leaving empty shelves of Fraim between the boxes (nice way to spend money, btw) or keeping the boxes close without extra spaces (like the Fraim seems designed for), I'll pass for one who can't hear and be pitied. If I say that I can hear differences but I don't care because they are too small and cannot be clearly divided into good and bad differences, I'll be answered that I can buy Onkyo off a supermarket shelf.

Ah, life: so complicated. Are you happy to know that a snaxo works better without the closure, knowing that the closure – by Naim's own admission - is the costliest part of most of their products?

Happy listenings!

M.

To me, my current setup is at least as good as the system I had fronted by a CDS2, and that’s just with a 272 rather than an NDS. I find it interesting that people are saying that their setups weren’t right without specific servers, poncy wires, certain switches, linear power supplies Ethernet breakthrough inverted flange modifiers and a liberal sprinkling of ferrets. 

You should be able to get an NDS out of the box, connect its power supply and link it to the network, and it should sound great. I’ve made some of the tweaks and optimisations, and they do improve things, but that does not mean that a straightforward installation won’t sound good. As I’ve said above, and as others have said too, either the NDS or its wires aren’t working properly, or the OP prefers the CD player. The former can be fixed, and the latter cannot. It’s pretty simple really. 

Well - frankly I've paid little attention to how the wires hang or what they touch.  In fact there's a right old orgy going on behind my racks.  And it sounds just great 

Hungryhalibut posted:

To me, my current setup is at least as good as the system I had fronted by a CDS2, and that’s just with a 272 rather than an NDS. I find it interesting that people are saying that their setups weren’t right without specific servers, poncy wires, certain switches, linear power supplies Ethernet breakthrough inverted flange modifiers and a liberal sprinkling of ferrets. 

You should be able to get an NDS out of the box, connect its power supply and link it to the network, and it should sound great. I’ve made some of the tweaks and optimisations, and they do improve things, but that does not mean that a straightforward installation won’t sound good. As I’ve said above, and as others have said too, either the NDS or its wires aren’t working properly, or the OP prefers the CD player. The former can be fixed, and the latter cannot. It’s pretty simple really. 

as you said: there can be something wrong with the nds or the wiring or the op prefers just the cds2/ 555dr for classical music.

But a third reason can exist:  the quality of the network and it’s optimization:  for me, as for some, it changed a lot for the quality of the sound.  Alll networks are different and this optimization can be a minimal change or a dramatic improvement ( for me).   The nds is not a plug and play component as it can be advertised.  Ethernet quality lan cables, linear ps on nas and switch, lan isolation.....vs just powerline on the naim cd players.

2 pages and I couldn't find very basic questions:

1. What format are the rips?

2. What were they created with?

3. Was the testing done using a CD and its rip?

Adam Zielinski posted:

2 pages and I couldn't find very basic questions:

1. What format are the rips?

2. What were they created with?

3. Was the testing done using a CD and its rip?

p1, the op said he has a uniticore: so normally he compared his cds ripped on the core vs the same played on the cds2.

Since the op has a uniticore, a simple change might suffice - only uniticire and NDS plugged into the switch (latest gen netgear, or better still, the Cisco one) and see if that makes a difference. Oh - and either basic chord co. Ethernet cables, or audioqyest vodkas.

Whether or not the cables will make a difference depends on how noisy the environment is 

French Rooster posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

2 pages and I couldn't find very basic questions:

1. What format are the rips?

2. What were they created with?

3. Was the testing done using a CD and its rip?

p1, the op said he has a uniticore: so normally he compared his cds ripped on the core vs the same played on the cds2.

Correct.
1. WAV
2. Uniti Core
3. Yes

BP.

MangoMonkey posted:

@BHPhotographer

Where is the music stored? The music sounded pretty lifeless to me, even with a UnitiServe-SSD when the music was stored on a Synology NAS. The move to a QNAP NAS made a big difference - music had emotions for the first time.

In addition to that, I'm not sure how your home network is setup. A lot of noise was being injected in my home network from the Comcast cable modem - had to isolate that too - here's the crazy way my home network is setup.

a) A network router, Comcast Modem and an Ethernet switch (Netgear) - all plugged into a TrippLite Isobar Ultra Power Strip. This is a highly rated powerstrip - and fairly cheap ($60). For the ethernet switch, I got the latest versions - the current - 1 version has capacitors in it, while the current one's dont. The new ones are quiter - and don't put gunk into your network. I've also got the iFi power adapter on the switch and maybe the modem (don't recall). All of this is in the laundry room.

b)  he UnitiServe SSD playing music stored on the QNAP Nas (TS 453A) sounds awesome. The NAS and the UnitiServe were both again plugged into a TrippLite Ultra powerstrip - in the loft. Might have used the ifi or not - I recall the ifi deadening the music on this ethernet switch (that connected the unitiserve, nas and plugged into the wall).

c) NDS plugged straigth into the wall.

I store my music on the Uniti Core's internal Hard Drive which is 4TB RED Western Digital.

BP.

Again, a cheap LG DVD connected to the NDS with naim DC1 cable is much better (and closer) to CDS-2 in terms of musicality, realism, engagement than the Uniti Core with naim DC1 cable to the NDS (or the network solution).
That means it might be something with the CD player itself. It was better eyes closed, eyes opened, sunglasses, etc, etc.

BP.

MangoMonkey posted:

Since the op has a uniticore, a simple change might suffice - only uniticire and NDS plugged into the switch (latest gen netgear, or better still, the Cisco one) and see if that makes a difference. Oh - and either basic chord co. Ethernet cables, or audioqyest vodkas.

Whether or not the cables will make a difference depends on how noisy the environment is 

the op tried everything ( see long list p1) but not yet the cisco and lan isolation.  If these last two “ tweaks “ ( not minor) don’t change the game, the nds has something wrong or the cds2 is his preferred player. 

Some, in this forum, have preferred the bare cdx2 vs the cds3/ xps2....better hifi is not always better enjoyment.