NDS is suppressed by CDS-2

badlands posted:

Hmack posted:

Badlands,

I think you might be talking about a completely different poster, with a completely different view of the NDS.

(i.e Chris Bell and BPPhotographer)

When I used the term you, I meant it in general terms, I didn't specifically mean YOU. Sometimes it's hard to get your point across on an internet forum.

Indeed it is!

I was simply commenting on your reply (below) to my previous quote in which you questioned my logic by introducing a rating of the NDS (3 out of 10) which you appear to have attributed to the person (Chris Bell) I referenced in my post, but which in fact came from an entirely different person (BPPhotographer). 

"The problem with your logic is that the NDS doesn't even sound as good (he rates the NDS a 3 out of 10) as his LG DVD player.

Based on the above, how could you assume it would easily out perform, better, a CDS2, when it can't even compete sonically with a mass produced DVD player?"

As I noted much earlier in this thread, I can understand a preference for a CD player over the streamer as I preferred a CDX2.2/XP5XS/nDAC/555PSDR over a Unitiserve/NDS/555PSDR, the latter using a rip of the CD played on the former.  However the difference wasn't huge and I still thought the NDS very good indeed.  So, given the significant differences that the OP describes and that the characteristic remains even using a LG DVD player, it seems highly likely to me that the NDS system isn't performing optimally.  As some others have suggested, getting the dealer to check it out would seem logical. The dealer ought to be able to advise one way or the other.    

badlands posted:

Hmack posted:

and by the way, do you too really believe that the Naim NDS can't complete with a cheap mass produced DVD player?

 

 

I mean it looks nice, and it's a very impressive piece of equipment, I'm sure owners are very happy with it, and in the end, I guess that's all that really matters, but in my honest opinion, it just doesn't have the sound quality, I'm sorry!

 

That's ok. I don't own an NDS myself, so I won't take offence with your opinion. 

As a matter of interest, does your opinion about sound quality extend to other streamers as well, or just specifically to the NDS?

Have you ever heard a demonstration of 'file playing' equipment of any make (streamer or renderer/DAC) that you thought sounded good, or are you of the opinion that any mass produced DVD player will likely sound better than any current file playing system? 

You never know? I haven't listened to that particular LG DVD player. perhaps it does possess a wonderful DAC? 

I've owned many Naim digital sources over the last 17 years:  CD3,CD2,CDS1,CDS2,CDS3,CD555 & NDS.  Each player from the CD3 on was an improvement in sound quality, the NDS offering the most tuneful, emotional and detailed sound out of the group. Everyone is welcome to their opinion, mine are based on the countless hours building, listening and evaluating.   That's why I think the NDS is superior. 

lots of comments here are not rational.

The problem is - the wires used to connect the components are just as important as the boxes themselves, and any source - including CD555 can be made to sound quite average or simply brilliant, depending on the interconnects.

Why did Naim develop the HI-line along with the CD555?

They knew the performance needed a better interconnect, and it did ship with the CD555 (inside the box)

If the Hugo is perceived to be bland, I would wager a bland and cheap interconnect was used to audition it, use it with a Hi-line, or Vertere interconnect, and even my lowly TV decoder comes to life. 

I've done the test many times, I run my TV decoder with a Vertere wire, and the Chord Mojo with a bland and cheap wire, and the cheap wire holds back the performance of the Chord Mojo. The Vertere wire allows the TV decoder to actually sound very good !

Vertere themselves do this test a hi-fi shows, they run one of their wires through an Ipod, and it sounds far, far better than one could imagine.

The wire is by far a weaker link than the electronics

I personally don't like the prices of SL wires, but it's a free market, and one can always get alternatives that don't cost stupid money.

My opinion - like Chris Bell, is based on countless hours of listening over the last 8 years.

So hence, without knowing the context of how the system is set up and which interconnects, some comments/posts just don't make sense and are not credible.

To me it seems like some (the cd player enthusiasts) have decided for them selves in advance, the Cd players are superior to the NDS or streamers in general for that sake. I suspect some have not even heard NDS, at least not in their own system, over a period and are against streaming because of the new and challenging setup.

When comparing CDS3/ 555 to an Aro'ed LP12 in a 500 system, the vinylplayer was to me in another world, very lifelike and actually to me NDS comes closer to the LP12 in emotional performance than the cd player did, by far more dimensional in it's presentation.

If one don't like NDS to their cd player, that's ok for me, but ditching it in advance, I feel sorry for them 

analogmusic posted:

lots of comments here are not rational.

The problem is - the wires used to connect the components are just as important as the boxes themselves, and any source - including CD555 can be made to sound quite average or simply brilliant, depending on the interconnects.

Why did Naim develop the HI-line along with the CD555?

They knew the performance needed a better interconnect, and it did ship with the CD555 (inside the box)

If the Hugo is perceived to be bland, I would wager a bland and cheap interconnect was used to audition it, use it with a Hi-line, or Vertere interconnect, and even my lowly TV decoder comes to life. 

I've done the test many times, I run my TV decoder with a Vertere wire, and the Chord Mojo with a bland and cheap wire, and the cheap wire holds back the performance of the Chord Mojo. The Vertere wire allows the TV decoder to actually sound very good !

Vertere themselves do this test a hi-fi shows, they run one of their wires through an Ipod, and it sounds far, far better than one could imagine.

The wire is by far a weaker link than the electronics

I personally don't like the prices of SL wires, but it's a free market, and one can always get alternatives that don't cost stupid money.

My opinion - like Chris Bell, is based on countless hours of listening over the last 8 years.

So hence, without knowing the context of how the system is set up and which interconnects, some comments/posts just don't make sense and are not credible.

 

I've heard the Hugo with the following cables: Hi-Line, SuperLumina, Some Chord IC, Townshend.

BP.

Get the bloody dealer in!

Stover posted:

To me it seems like some (the cd player enthusiasts) have decided for them selves in advance, the Cd players are superior to the NDS or streamers in general for that sake. I suspect some have not even heard NDS, at least not in their own system, over a period and are against streaming because of the new and challenging setup.

When comparing CDS3/ 555 to an Aro'ed LP12 in a 500 system, the vinylplayer was to me in another world, very lifelike and actually to me NDS comes closer to the LP12 in emotional performance than the cd player did, by far more dimensional in it's presentation.

If one don't like NDS to their cd player, that's ok for me, but ditching it in advance, I feel sorry for them 

I really want to love the NDS because of it's convenience, and I'm not afraid of any new digital approach.
It just doesn't sounds as good as my cd player.

BP.

Unless the NDS was bought privately, got to be worth a visit from dealer. Hope it turns out for you but I suspect you just prefer CDs. No shame there.

Pev posted:

Get the bloody dealer in!

Whenever I talk with the dealer he says: "I have no time", "I'm very busy".
I take some items for a demo but that's it.
He also doesn't know much about all the new digital stuff.

BP.

I know BP, but I suspect some don't and if so, it's really a pity.

Maybe, as you say, your dealer don't have time for you cause he actually don't know how to solve this .......... or it cannot be solved because you simply like your cdp better? Based on what you must have paid for your setup, in my view you should find another dealer that can help. With a setup like that, included the LP12, you should be able to get support when needed.

S

Ask your dealer for a loan of their demo streamer and compare at home then. If they don’t sound the same you will have proved it’s a faulty NDS.

Stu (sticking with his CDS3/LP12).

BPhotographer posted:

Pev posted:

Get the bloody dealer in!

Whenever I talk with the dealer he says: "I have no time", "I'm very busy".

I think not all Dealers are equal. We have very different experiences, as although they are a business and have to prioritize their time on that basis, mine has always made time for me - and that was way before I purchased any expensive equipment. In fact part of the reason I did extend my system was on the basis I could try at home and only purchase as I was convinced of the efficacy of the results as I went.

Before my present dealer in years past it was a 'buy and forget' process where the Dealer made a valiant effort in the pre-sale but home demo was mostly impossible and I made mistakes. Part of my 'return to the fold' with Naim have been to ensure I make fewer mistakes in a period of my life where money has to be more carefully spent - and I'm liking the Naim sound, system approach and after-purchase support from my Dealer.

The best result for all is not to need to bother the Dealer, but on the rare occasion it was necessary and dug me out of some holes. And they themselves eventually benefited with a longer overview perspective on customer support - so it is really sad to see you are not being supported.

As to all the discussion on CD - Streaming - Vinyl sources and their different 'sound' I've reviewed all that in my previous post. I don't personally hear Vinyl as superior as many do but hear where it is good at what it does and can enjoy it - but there is also a reason I've retired my own Vinyl source and use CD and it is not that I like inferior performance from CD as some seem to think it seems. There are things CD does - different from Vinyl - that I have never heard the latter ever do. We hear things differently and some friends nearly tear their hair out trying to convince me that Vinyl has good bass, stability and the sense of 'there' that I get from good CD - but I hear otherwise and obviously value different things.

I hope you find out what is wrong with the implementation of the NDS in your system as it should not be as poor as you report. Differences yes - but it should capture your attention and engage you or it is not working properly IMO.

DB.

Hmack posted:

badlands posted:

Hmack posted:

and by the way, do you too really believe that the Naim NDS can't complete with a cheap mass produced DVD player?

 

 

I mean it looks nice, and it's a very impressive piece of equipment, I'm sure owners are very happy with it, and in the end, I guess that's all that really matters, but in my honest opinion, it just doesn't have the sound quality, I'm sorry!

 

That's ok. I don't own an NDS myself, so I won't take offence with your opinion. 

As a matter of interest, does your opinion about sound quality extend to other streamers as well, or just specifically to the NDS?

Have you ever heard a demonstration of 'file playing' equipment of any make (streamer or renderer/DAC) that you thought sounded good, or are you of the opinion that any mass produced DVD player will likely sound better than any current file playing system? 

You never know? I haven't listened to that particular LG DVD player. perhaps it does possess a wonderful DAC? 

I never stated that the DVD player sounded better, the OP stated that after extensive home auditions.

Honestly I would not mind having the funds to by an nds just to find out that I did not like it, and having it sitting around using other equipment. Well it is not going to happen in my situation.

Claus

badlands posted:

Hmack posted:

badlands posted:

Hmack posted:

and by the way, do you too really believe that the Naim NDS can't complete with a cheap mass produced DVD player?

 

 

I mean it looks nice, and it's a very impressive piece of equipment, I'm sure owners are very happy with it, and in the end, I guess that's all that really matters, but in my honest opinion, it just doesn't have the sound quality, I'm sorry!

 

That's ok. I don't own an NDS myself, so I won't take offence with your opinion. 

As a matter of interest, does your opinion about sound quality extend to other streamers as well, or just specifically to the NDS?

Have you ever heard a demonstration of 'file playing' equipment of any make (streamer or renderer/DAC) that you thought sounded good, or are you of the opinion that any mass produced DVD player will likely sound better than any current file playing system? 

You never know? I haven't listened to that particular LG DVD player. perhaps it does possess a wonderful DAC? 

I never stated that the DVD player sounded better, the OP stated that after extensive home auditions.

OK, I had guessed that you probably haven't compared the NDS with that particular LG DVD player, but from your original post above, you have obviously listened to the NDS and do not rate its sound quality highly. Did you compare it with a specific CD player, and do you feel the same way about all streaming devices, or have you only heard the NDS?  

Darke Bear posted:-

I think not all Dealers are equal. We have very different experiences, as although they are a business and have to prioritize their time on that basis, mine has always made time for me - and that was way before I purchased any expensive equipment. In fact part of the reason I did extend my system was on the basis I could try at home and only purchase as I was convinced of the efficacy of the results as I went.

Before my present dealer in years past it was a 'buy and forget' process where the Dealer made a valiant effort in the pre-sale but home demo was mostly impossible and I made mistakes. Part of my 'return to the fold' with Naim have been to ensure I make fewer mistakes in a period of my life where money has to be more carefully spent - and I'm liking the Naim sound, system approach and after-purchase support from my Dealer.

The best result for all is not to need to bother the Dealer, but on the rare occasion it was necessary and dug me out of some holes. And they themselves eventually benefited with a longer overview perspective on customer support - so it is really sad to see you are not being supported.

As to all the discussion on CD - Streaming - Vinyl sources and their different 'sound' I've reviewed all that in my previous post. I don't personally hear Vinyl as superior as many do but hear where it is good at what it does and can enjoy it - but there is also a reason I've retired my own Vinyl source and use CD and it is not that I like inferior performance from CD as some seem to think it seems. There are things CD does - different from Vinyl - that I have never heard the latter ever do. We hear things differently and some friends nearly tear their hair out trying to convince me that Vinyl has good bass, stability and the sense of 'there' that I get from good CD - but I hear otherwise and obviously value different things.

I hope you find out what is wrong with the implementation of the NDS in your system as it should not be as poor as you report. Differences yes - but it should capture your attention and engage you or it is not working properly IMO.

DB.

I am one of the partially depilated friends to whom DB alludes. Neither of us is right or wrong with regard to our opinions on CD and vinyl replay.

A succinct example that the vast majority of comment on the forum is generated by personal taste and experience, and thus of arguably limited value to others. I know what I like (in your wardrobe) - and that's pretty much all that matters.

Hi-Fi dealers are the people with a broad spectrum of experience; the ability to dispense useful advice, suggest options, and let us try them.

So there you go Richard. You might as well shut up shop, turn out the lights and save Naim some money.

John.

Sorry to here you are not happy with your NDS. I tried one once but it had only a few days of running before I got it for demo due to some issue with the intended demo unit, to these ears it was not on the level of my CDS3. I wrote this of as a matter of insufficient run-in. But it was way better than a basic dvd-player...

A taught, the burndies was mentioned as a potential cause of your situation, have you tried running your NDS by the 555ps and sxps cable you run your CDS2 with? I understand this should sound good but not as good as with two “555 burndies”. Possibly worth a try...

Is the NDS really that sensitive to set-up?

BP:    Sorry, I joined this discussion late - how are you ripping your CDs and at what resolution?  Should be FLAC/WAV at "uncompressed lossless".  Have you tried connecting with a decent RJe cable such as Audioquest Vodka?

ayisgroovy posted:

BP:    Sorry, I joined this discussion late - how are you ripping your CDs and at what resolution?  Should be FLAC/WAV at "uncompressed lossless".  Have you tried connecting with a decent RJe cable such as Audioquest Vodka?

I rip my CDs with Uniti Core (and also with Mac Mini + XLD / Windows + dBpoweramp - tried them all).
The files are WAV, uncompressed...
I have now the Chord Sarum T, Chord Signature and Acoustic Revive Lan cables for a demonstration, that improved some things but unfortunately still doesn't come close to the CDS-2.

BP.

BPhotographer posted:

analogmusic posted:

lots of comments here are not rational.

The problem is - the wires used to connect the components are just as important as the boxes themselves, and any source - including CD555 can be made to sound quite average or simply brilliant, depending on the interconnects.

Why did Naim develop the HI-line along with the CD555?

They knew the performance needed a better interconnect, and it did ship with the CD555 (inside the box)

If the Hugo is perceived to be bland, I would wager a bland and cheap interconnect was used to audition it, use it with a Hi-line, or Vertere interconnect, and even my lowly TV decoder comes to life. 

I've done the test many times, I run my TV decoder with a Vertere wire, and the Chord Mojo with a bland and cheap wire, and the cheap wire holds back the performance of the Chord Mojo. The Vertere wire allows the TV decoder to actually sound very good !

Vertere themselves do this test a hi-fi shows, they run one of their wires through an Ipod, and it sounds far, far better than one could imagine.

The wire is by far a weaker link than the electronics

I personally don't like the prices of SL wires, but it's a free market, and one can always get alternatives that don't cost stupid money.

My opinion - like Chris Bell, is based on countless hours of listening over the last 8 years.

So hence, without knowing the context of how the system is set up and which interconnects, some comments/posts just don't make sense and are not credible.

 

I've heard the Hugo with the following cables: Hi-Line, SuperLumina, Some Chord IC, Townshend.

BP.

I guess that would cover all the bases!

Joppe posted:

have you tried running your NDS by the 555ps and sxps cable you run your CDS2 with? I understand this should sound good but not as good as with two “555 burndies”. Possibly worth a try...

 

Thanks. Didn't try that... Is it possible to connect the NDS to the 555PS with only the analogue cable?
I'll need to find the plug for the power supply socket 2 

BP.

Chris Bell posted:

   That's why I think the NDS is superior. 

That may be true, I wonder if using TWO 555DR power supplies may have something to do with that opinion?  I guess one 555DR just didn't do it for you.