NDS is suppressed by CDS-2

BPhotographer posted:

ayisgroovy posted:

BP:    Sorry, I joined this discussion late - how are you ripping your CDs and at what resolution?  Should be FLAC/WAV at "uncompressed lossless".  Have you tried connecting with a decent RJe cable such as Audioquest Vodka?

I rip my CDs with Uniti Core (and also with Mac Mini + XLD / Windows + dBpoweramp - tried them all).
The files are WAV, uncompressed...
I have now the Chord Sarum T, Chord Signature and Acoustic Revive Lan cables for a demonstration, that improved some things but unfortunately still doesn't come close to the CDS-2.

BP.

BP,

Why don't you post a few images of the front and the back of your NAIM set-up so perhaps the expert guys here can come up with some suggestions instead of just guesses.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Is the NDS really that sensitive to set-up?

Not in my experience.

Hi BP-

If you have not tried this already, you might try to play a given well recorded CD which you know well in three or four ways on your system provided you have the equipment and the cables to run this test:   (Keep the volume exactly the same on each test for the greatest certainty.)

1) Play your CD on your CDS2 as is with whatever you use for the interconnect to your pre-amp.    This is your baseline, and doubtlessly deeply familiar to you.

2) Play the CD on the next best CD player you can manage in your home- either yours or a friend's if you have easy access to one.    Most likely this will not be as good as your CDS, but it will help you establish a wider set of experiences of what is intrinsic to CD replay.    Unless you have a second Naim CD player handy, you probably can't keep the interconnect the same as above, but do your best to keep the two players on as equal a footing as practical.   

3) Play the CD through whatever CD or DVD player you have on hand which has a digital output- either toslink optical or better yet, coax- run into the DAC section of the NDS.    Here you can use the exact same cable as in number 1.    In fact, you might simply skip number 2 above as it is the least relevant of these tests.     Here you are really hearing the NDS as a DAC, and it may well perform better than you have experienced to date, but not inevitably.    The quality and connections of a digital cable do matter, but it will probably be easier to find or borrow an RCA to RCA coax digital cable, which should be sufficient for this test to be useful for you.

4) Play the ripped version of the same CD via your NDS as a UPNP source.

Depending on how you feel about these results, the next steps should be easier to map out.    As many of the posters have pointed out, there are many variables which can influence the whole chain in the fully networked UPNP streaming eco system.

Good luck,

Bruce

Haim Ronen posted:

BPhotographer posted:

ayisgroovy posted:

BP:    Sorry, I joined this discussion late - how are you ripping your CDs and at what resolution?  Should be FLAC/WAV at "uncompressed lossless".  Have you tried connecting with a decent RJe cable such as Audioquest Vodka?

I rip my CDs with Uniti Core (and also with Mac Mini + XLD / Windows + dBpoweramp - tried them all).
The files are WAV, uncompressed...
I have now the Chord Sarum T, Chord Signature and Acoustic Revive Lan cables for a demonstration, that improved some things but unfortunately still doesn't come close to the CDS-2.

BP.

BP,

Why don't you post a few images of the front and the back of your NAIM set-up so perhaps the expert guys here can come up with some suggestions instead of just guesses.

Good advice...
As I said, I tried many system set-ups (including brain & brown racks), don'y panic that the 555PS is underneath the 500 head unit.
The switch is very close to the system due to the advice of using short ethernet cables, but it's connected to another mains.
I disconnected the CDS-2 and the LP12 in order to focus the NDS problem.

Sorry for the poor iPhone picture quality.

BP.

bdnyc posted:

Hi BP-

If you have not tried this already, you might try to play a given well recorded CD which you know well in three or four ways on your system provided you have the equipment and the cables to run this test:   (Keep the volume exactly the same on each test for the greatest certainty.)

1) Play your CD on your CDS2 as is with whatever you use for the interconnect to your pre-amp.    This is your baseline, and doubtlessly deeply familiar to you.

2) Play the CD on the next best CD player you can manage in your home- either yours or a friend's if you have easy access to one.    Most likely this will not be as good as your CDS, but it will help you establish a wider set of experiences of what is intrinsic to CD replay.    Unless you have a second Naim CD player handy, you probably can't keep the interconnect the same as above, but do your best to keep the two players on as equal a footing as practical.   

3) Play the CD through whatever CD or DVD player you have on hand which has a digital output- either toslink optical or better yet, coax- run into the DAC section of the NDS.    Here you can use the exact same cable as in number 1.    In fact, you might simply skip number 2 above as it is the least relevant of these tests.     Here you are really hearing the NDS as a DAC, and it may well perform better than you have experienced to date, but not inevitably.    The quality and connections of a digital cable do matter, but it will probably be easier to find or borrow an RCA to RCA coax digital cable, which should be sufficient for this test to be useful for you.

4) Play the ripped version of the same CD via your NDS as a UPNP source.

Depending on how you feel about these results, the next steps should be easier to map out.    As many of the posters have pointed out, there are many variables which can influence the whole chain in the fully networked UPNP streaming eco system.

Good luck,

Bruce

 

 

 

Hi Bruce,
I actually tired this.
I played the CDS-2, then I connected a friend's CDP called Playback Designs (20000$) - it was good but I prefer the CDS-2.
Then I played through the LG DVD into the NDS (this combination brings a lot of what I like of the great CD Players, but lacks other things: the beauty/naturalness of the instruments for example).
Then I played through the Uniti Core (BNC or network) into the NDS - nice, natural, laid back, flat, boring.
Then I played through the Mac Mini / Macbook pro - JRiver / Asset / MinimServer - worse than the Uniti Core.
Then I played through the Synology ds213j, using it's own UPnP server and also MinimServer - worse than the Macs.

BP.

NDS elsewhere:
I listened to the NDS in the following systems:
1. Two friends in Israel - sounds similar to my NDS, it's ok, everything is fine - but it's boring (500 series systems).
2. England - Naim's factory, Statement. I focused on listening to the Statement so didn't bother to listen to what the NDS was doing (they used some poor Belkin ethernet cables though).
3. England - Infiidelity store. That was the best NDS I've ever heard. Connected with AQ Vodka ethernet cable and Uniti Core connected with AQ Cinnamon.
The system was: 252DR-300DR-NDS-555PS DR-B&W 802 D3.
4. Munich High End 2017 - 2x300DR-552DR-NDS-555PS DR-AQ Vodka-HDX-AQ Cinnamon-Focal - it was good.
5. Munich High End 2016 - 500DR-552DR-NDS-555PS DR-older Focal - sound was not good.

I also think the transport is very important, maybe more than the DAC itself.

BP.

Agree about transport but in your case nds is the transport. Your talking about server 

But your SL interconnect is touching other cables ?

and you have a cheap power strip

ho hum .... why complain about performance then in public.

In my view its essensiell that mains are plugged directly into wall sockets and not via power blocks, no matter quality. (In my place there's IT power/ grid system).

Very big difference in gained speed, clarity and lowered noise floor, and this will give better conditions to both CDS2 and NDS.

analogmusic posted:

Agree about transport but in your case nds is the transport. Your talking about server 

But your SL interconnect is touching other cables ?

and you have a cheap power strip

ho hum .... why complain about performance then in public.

The NDS is the player when the Uniti Core is connected to the network.
The Uniti Core is the player when it connects to the NDS via DC1 BNC cable.
The transport here is a combination of server+player, so the NDS itself is not the transport.

My SL interconnect is touching other cables, but in other configurations it didn't and that is not the big difference, it's a tweak.
The power strip is OK - the LP12 sounds superb, the CDS-2 sounds excellent, the NAT 01 sounds very very good.
It's some old Gewiss which I'm using for 25-30 years, the internal wiring is separate for each socket (going from the input).
I'm using Naim power lines for all components so it should be ok (the picture above is Uniti Core without a power line, I check if it's better that way).

BP.

I'm sorry but this is exactly as I have found the NDS compared with the Naim CDPs - lacking dynamics.

BP -  NDS at full health issues aside, have you considered something like the Chord Dave (or Naim DAC / 555PS) as an alternative to the NDS, driven by the Core via S/PDIF ?

James

PS - apologies if already suggested - the threads getting a bit long...

There is no real need to move away from NDS to anything else. 

In my experience DC1 is not the very best cable for connecting your server to NDS. Apologies to Naim, but in their defence Naim don't ask for lot of money.

The Chord Signature or Sarum digital cables are far, far superior and make huge sonic and musical gains. The old Chord Indigo plus alone completely trounces DC1 to my ears.

My opinion, my ears, my experience. 

I'm personally extremely happy with my Vertere DFI USB cable which is a lot cheaper than a Sarum

Oh and it would be a good effort to do what Chris Bell does which is making a huge amount of dedication to making sure no cable touches each other or the floor.

You paid a lot of money for your kit, now it's worth it to spend a little more for a good digital cable, and some time to cable dress it all carefully

I don't know if you have done this already, but I would put the NDS back in the position of being the transport - using UPNP and use the core as a network server rather than a transport using SPDIF and DC1 which is what you are doing now.

The advantage of UPNP is that there is real time error correction, as the data is read into the buffer of the NDS and clocked out with the clock of the NDS.

Right now the core is the clock, and at the mercy of a 200 GBP cable. No match for a Vertere or Sarum digital cable.

good luck

The Strat (Fender) posted:

I'm sorry but this is exactly as I have found the NDS compared with the Naim CDPs - lacking dynamics.

I don't agree - it probably was not set up properly.

the op, even in other systems, found the nds boring.  It is the first time i read that.  Some prefer the cd555 or cdx2/xps2/ ndac/ 555dr. A few prefer the cds3/555dr. But i never read in this forum than someone found the nds boring.   

For myself i preferred the cdx2/ xps2 for its urgency and involvment, but at the beginning, before i upgraded and isolated my network.   But even at the beginning, the nds wasn’t boring.

would be interesting to note if the NDS has the same DAC Chip as CDS/2

also the same digital filter (maybe not)

So it's bound to be a different sound?

I suspect that the CDS (and CD players in general) have a more streamlined signal path, compared to streamers. Possibly  having fewer interfaces and conversion processes. At the very least, the differences may account for the variation in sound between them.  

I don't know about that. I used to have a DAC V1 and it was one of the most involving sources I ever heard, no matter which input I used, optical or USB.

BP = have you tried a different interconnect with your NDS like Hi-line or lavender which came in the box.

ROOG posted:

I suspect that the CDS (and CD players in general) have a more streamlined signal path, compared to streamers. Possibly  having fewer interfaces and conversion processes. At the very least, the differences may account for the variation in sound between them.  

Now that makes sense. Logic. Imagine that !

pj

(P.S> Not to suggest Streaming can't be great -it can. BUT, consistently? In which case (as ROOG pointed out)  " CD's/CDP's ... have fewer interfaces and conversion processes" would be a logical (and practical) reason it (likely) offers more consistent results.

I have no evidence to support this but I don’t think it’s anything to do with cables. 

until it is all plugged into the wall mains or using a mains block that most Naim users use (for example : Wireworld Matrix) - and also the SL cables hanging free and not touching others... maybe it is or isn't a cable issue.

Chris Bell has spent hours making sure none of his wires touch each other and says he is very happy with his NDS.

At this level of kit NDS/552/500 attention to detail pays off.

Perhaps the OP just doesn't like the NDS presentation compared to the CDS2. I know it's a Naim box, so in some eyes can do no wrong, but it's not working for the OP.

It does make me wonder why it was purchased in the first place ?

Absolutely James. Okay I recognise that I'm in the minority in that whenever I've heard the Naim streamers they have not presented the music to me in a way that gives me the "feel good" that I get with my CDS3 and indeed TT.  Further, whilst I've bought some PLs and a Hiline I've not invested £000s in SL or other esoteric brands and it sounds just great.   Assuming that there is nothing wrong with the NDS set-up (and I just don't believe it is as difficult or complex as some are making out) surely the conclusion is that the OP prefers the CDP?  

Regards,

Lindsay

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Absolutely James. Okay I recognise that I'm in the minority in that whenever I've heard the Naim streamers they have not presented the music to me in a way that gives me the "feel good" that I get with my CDS3 and indeed TT.  Further, whilst I've bought some PLs and a Hiline I've not invested £000s in SL or other esoteric brands and it sounds just great.   Assuming that there is nothing wrong with the NDS set-up (and I just don't believe it is as difficult or complex as some are making out) surely the conclusion is that the OP prefers the CDP?  

Regards,

Lindsay

You've nailed it for me Lindsay. I've heard a few very fine streaming rigs, but nothing that inspires me to change my LP12 and CD555 for.

The excellent streaming rigs I've heard all sound very competent but simply different, as opposed to obviously 'better' or 'worse'. The fact that some of us get the sound of vinyl and some do not is simple proof that logic does (largely) not apply. We like what we like as individuals and should have the courage of our convictions. Beware the marketing monster!

When the music ceases to engage and delight; that's the time to look at alternative kit.

John.

I'm not convinced at all that an NDS is that far away in performance from a CDS2 : I would look at the burndy cables and get the cryogenic (contact AV options USA) treated before making a big mistake and loss selling the NDS.

FWIW when I heard an NDS all I could think is WOW, that is some source.

analogmusic posted:

I'm not convinced at all that an NDS is that far away in performance from a CDS2 : I would look at the burndy cables and get the cryogenic (contact AV options USA) treated before making a big mistake and loss selling the NDS.

Understood Ali, but they don't sound the same and that is probably the issue. In my case, I'm not a fan of the CDX2 but i like the CDS3 . Both are excellent players and have the 'Naim Sound' but i just prefer the CDS3 presentation.

Below par NDS aside, from what the OP says (and from what others say) i just think the OP prefers his CDS2 and if this is the case, tweaking the NDS with upmarket cables etc is not going to change things.