If not Ovator or SBL then ?

Innocent Bystander posted:

Mort2k posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

PMC Fact 12 crop up from time to time ex-dem within that budget, but I've no idea how they compare in sound, and I don't think they do rosewood...  They are very skinny and elegant looking, and the sound can be tailored slightly to the room.

I was looking at the PMC range the other day but the Twenty5 Range, they fit the size and looks test, just need to listen. Will consider the FACT range as well - they very different in sound ? 

 

 

Fact 12 is a significant step up in sound presentatio. from twenty26, while being more elegant (to my eyes) as a result of its slim front. But they are also significantly more expensive.

I seem to recall that the Fact 12s require a lot of driving. One member on here felt it took a 500. They look superb though.

The Fact 12s look stunning - and they have been known to seriously outperform Kudos Titan 88s, but in a rather  idiosyncratic room 

Chris Dolan posted:

The Fact 12s look stunning - and they have been known to seriously outperform Kudos Titan 88s, but in a rather  idiosyncratic room 

A pity we don't hear from Peter on here any more.

MDS posted:

Chris Dolan posted:

The Fact 12s look stunning - and they have been known to seriously outperform Kudos Titan 88s, but in a rather  idiosyncratic room 

A pity we don't hear from Peter on here any more.

I also miss the Viking Dentist, and hope he is doing well. Ditto for Dr. Blues.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Have a listen to QUAD electrostatic speakers. 

Ovators were also modelled on them (which I can confirm in a way, as I own and run Ovators S400 and QUAD ESL 63)

Ovators modelled on Quad electrostatics????

Source for that claim, please.

analogmusic posted:

Surprised no one has yet mentioned the Dynaudio/Naim synergy.

If not a Naim speaker, then for me the speaker that is compatible with Naim values of Pace Rhythm and Timing is Dynaudio.

 

Even more surprised no one has yet, until now, mentioned ProAc! A match made in heaven. 

ProAc +1 ????????????

jon honeyball posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Have a listen to QUAD electrostatic speakers. 

Ovators were also modelled on them (which I can confirm in a way, as I own and run Ovators S400 and QUAD ESL 63)

Ovators modelled on Quad electrostatics????

Source for that claim, please.

I remember reading about the development of Ovators sometime early this year.  Quad ESL-63s were mentioned as one of the inspirations. (so use of a word 'modelled' is probably not the best one here).

ESL63 are an inspiration to any designer, despite their collossal issues. 

I'm know KarlHeinz holds them in high regard. 

Had Ovator S400s for a while and they certainly rock.  Switched to Kudos Super 20s which I never liked as much - in particular earpiercing brightness in the top end that I could never tame.  Now running Focal Sopra 1s and loving them - they have a totally sublime midrange and the sweetest, most open treble on the planet.  You need to like speakers that look like Daleks but on the upside they do a funky orange finish.

.

ova tots

As i was looking for a successor for my Naim Ariva, i demoed the B&W 804 against the 

Fali Epicon 6.

The Dali was in every aspect miles ahead of the B&W and the Dali looks stunning.

Adam Zielinski posted:

jon honeyball posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Have a listen to QUAD electrostatic speakers. 

Ovators were also modelled on them (which I can confirm in a way, as I own and run Ovators S400 and QUAD ESL 63)

Ovators modelled on Quad electrostatics????

Source for that claim, please.

I remember reading about the development of Ovators sometime early this year.  Quad ESL-63s were mentioned as one of the inspirations. (so use of a word 'modelled' is probably not the best one here).

As a connoisseur of almost everything Naim ever done, I’m also quite curious about where you read that and who said it? Should we stop the press...

//Jonas

Hi Rob,

I was wondering.. when did your SBLs last received some tlc... You mentioned that you haven't looked at the speaker market for about 10 years. I've got a pair of '87 mark 1's which I've been running for years and whilst keeping everything else serviced, left them unattended. Inspired by others on various threads I had them spruced up about 18 months ago.. Darran from class A fitted new tweeters and supplied me with new crossovers from naim. They've been singing ever since like I've never heard before! I have an NDX/82/SC/250. From what I’ve read the SBLs are generally considered to work well with even best of the lasted naim electronics, but I guess they have to be at their best too.. Maybe I'm still be living the '80s from a speaker perspective, but it'll take a lot wean me off my SBLs. I just love what they do!

Rich.

Totally agree with you Rich. They still take some beating.

Stu

Noogle posted:

Had Ovator S400s for a while and they certainly rock.  Switched to Kudos Super 20s which I never liked as much - in particular earpiercing brightness in the top end that I could never tame.  Now running Focal Sopra 1s and loving them - they have a totally sublime midrange and the sweetest, most open treble on the planet.  You need to like speakers that look like Daleks but on the upside they do a funky orange finish.

.

 

 

 

 

 

ova tots

Funny I thought exactly the opposite between the S20s and Sopra 1s. 

RichJ posted:

Hi Rob,

I was wondering.. when did your SBLs last received some tlc... You mentioned that you haven't looked at the speaker market for about 10 years. I've got a pair of '87 mark 1's which I've been running for years and whilst keeping everything else serviced, left them unattended. Inspired by others on various threads I had them spruced up about 18 months ago.. Darran from class A fitted new tweeters and supplied me with new crossovers from naim. They've been singing ever since like I've never heard before! I have an NDX/82/SC/250. From what I’ve read the SBLs are generally considered to work well with even best of the lasted naim electronics, but I guess they have to be at their best too.. Maybe I'm still be living the '80s from a speaker perspective, but it'll take a lot wean me off my SBLs. I just love what they do!

Rich.

A good speaker in the 80s, or 90s or 70s, can still be every bit as good and able to hold its ground against younger speakers, subject if necessary to replacement of deteriorated parts, most likely (but by no means inevitably) crossover capacitors and deformed or perished cone surrounds.

Never, did I say, NEVER, underestimate SBL's. Its not being stuck in any era, they rock like nothing I have ever heard, period. Perhaps we are lucky with the room we have, I set them up like an anorak too, nothing difficult, but set up witht the upmost care and attention to details. IMO of course it was a shame Naim ended up in this confusing position re speakers, ownership and divided priorities, but not in their total control I guess, I heard there were issues in the past with cabinet quality etc.

Rob, What's the latest? Thanks.

Afternoon All

Apologies for the late reply, been a manic few weeks with work etc.

So to recap the last couple of weeks.

The s400 went and now have a nice home in a mate systems and are sounding good. Reflection on the S400 is  very positive, but some final playing with position revealed they where at there best a bit to far into our room to be practical.

The SBL's went back in, position checked, seal checked and listening commenced. Just before the break from the SBL the system was moved onto Fraim, not the best timing but these things cannot be helped. The difference from the Fraim was obvious from the first note, deeper more controlled bottom end, more clarity in the mid range and better separation. But there was the obvious drop in sound stage that the S400 brought, the music was a bit flat or 1 dimensional, lacked depth i guess is the right word. Also the harsh top end was back with a vengeance and just as bad as i remembered. I left it a week to settle down and while i could get used to the flatter sound stage the top end was frustrating and tiring.

Then came the NDX !! Moving from ND5/XPSDR to NDX/XPSDR - Wow. What a difference more of everything, some of the depth was back (not as much as the s400) and a significant taming of the top end harshness that was driving me mad. The music bounced along and the PRAT was spot on. I have had a few very pleasant evenings getting to know the NDX and i am very impressed so far, a massive step up  from the ND5 as nice as it was.

So where does that leave me ? There is still some more depth to the sound stage i would like to regain and still some of that top end harshness that grates. I have a morning  booked at my dealer to try a few alternate options to narrow the list before possible home demo. Also i have a generous offer from a customer of my dealer to loan a SNAXO 242, so with help from a mates system, I will also get to test Active SBL's at home to see how that compares. << Options for HiCap and SuperCap >>

For now its all about listening and enjoying what the Fraim and NDX has brought to the system.

Thanks

Rob

PS -I have ordered a Torque set as well to check the SBL driver bolts !

I think your SBLs are showing up the ability or otherwise of your sources. They are very revealing. They will always be a bit 2D in terms of soundstage. If that is what you want then other speakers may be required.

Going active makes the system both more sensitive and even more revealing in my limited experience of them. Others may add more. But this also points to improving sources rather than going active.

Finally, they were voiced originally fronted by an LP12. I find a CDS3 also works well so they can sound good with digital. I simply don’t recognise the harsh top end that you and others report. Source first is no longer fashionable it seems, but SBLs are a product of a time when it was. 

It will be interesting to see how you proceed. Good luck in your search for a solution.

Stu

So the Journey continues this weekend. 

A very nice customer of my dealer has lent me a 242 and my dealer a 250DR and HiCapDR. So I get to test active SBL’s ????

working with a close friend we will test. 

1. 135 > 250DR with full loom. Just for interest sake. 

2. active with 135 / 250DR

3. Active with 250.2 / 250DR

we cannot do full loom for active as short a speaker cable run and the extra XLR lumina. 

Will report back observations. 

Rob

One test I'd be interested to hear about, if you get chance, is whether you find much difference between 250.2 on treble and 250DR on bass/mid and vice versa.

The guidance is usually to use the best amp on the treble, but given your mention of perceived harshness I suspect you may find the 250.2 mellower.

Dave***t posted:

One test I'd be interested to hear about, if you get chance, is whether you find much difference between 250.2 on treble and 250DR on bass/mid and vice versa.

The guidance is usually to use the best amp on the treble, but given your mention of perceived harshness I suspect you may find the 250.2 mellower.

Dave. This is a test we are planning as well. Same with the 135’s

rob

Evening all

I thought i would try to capture some of the thought from the weekends testing and listening. All kit is run in and all kit was kept warm or allowed to warm up before listening. Three / four pairs of ears helped form the opinions to ensure a balanced view was obtained. I apologies in advance for me terminology I find hifi hard to put into words at times. 

Starting Point for ease of reference for all - > NDX/XPSDR > HiLine > 52/SCap > 135 > SBL  - Fraim 

First test was more for interest sake and comparison of the 135 to the 250DR. As we had the cables we tried this a full loom setup (borrowed from a mate).

NDX/XPSDR > 52/SCap > 250DR > SBL  - Fraim - SL Full Loom

• Harsh top end gone - check
• Instrument separation and reproduction better - check
• Overall engagement and drive - gone ! - Fail

While the 250DR was a very nice amp to listen to and did not have that fatigue / harsh top end that the 135's had it also did not engage you or provide the emotional connection like the 135's do. This was not unexpected 

Next came the first active test. As we did not have enough SL to full loom this and it would not be in the final system either we removed all SL and reverted back to HiLine and NACA5

First Test was 

NDX/XPSDR > HiLine > 52/SCap > 250DR(Hi) / 135 (Low) > SNAXO 242/HiCapDR > SBL - Fraim

Being my first listen to active SBL all i can say is wow !

All the Drive that was lost from the test above was back and the Instrument separation and reproduction was leaps and bounds ahead. Emotion, engagement both there in spades and just a delight to listen to. The harsh top end removed , just so easy to listen to. Base extension and definition was massively improved  and the overall sound stage increased.

There was little bad to say about this combination at this time ! Only comment in the room was the 1D nature of the SBL sound stage remained but all agreed it was a minor concern.

Second Test

NDX/XPSDR  > HiLine >  52/SCap > 250DR(Low) / 135 (hi) > SNAXO 242/HiCapDR > SBL - Fraim

The instant reaction was just No, this is not good ! That fatigue and harsh edge was back, not as much but it was back. The base definition and extension was reduced as well. The overall active benefits did remain around separation, dire, engagement etc.

After a few tracks it was noted that though a bit harsh the top end had a nice zing to it that was missing on the 250DR variant above. Nice Decay and nicer on the volcals when not really high notes.

I guess this shows the capabilities of the 135 over the 250DR  but also the weakness of the Olive 'sound' in this combination. It begins to suggest the harst top end if a result of 135>SBL combo in my room with the rest of the electronic.

Third Test - back to first active but added Full Loom to the 250DR on the high (as we had enough cable). The thought was to balance the results a bit from above.

NDX/XPSDR >  52/SCap > 250DR(Hi) / 135 (Low) > SNAXO 242/HiCapDR > SBL - Fraim - SL Full Loom (Hi amp Only + Interconnect)

So could we gain some of that top end 'zing'  that the 135 gave from 250DR and the Lumina, while keeping the base extension and removing the Fatigue/Harsh

Answer yes - not all but a good portion of it.

So far this was the best combination by a long way. We got the base and overall drive from the 135's and the nice top end from the 250DR/Lumina Combination

This setup sang very nice and was a joy to listen to for a few hours for sure.

Fourth Test - Due to rack space needed to test without the 135's 

NDX/XPSDR > HiLine > 52/SCap > 250.2(Hi) / 250DR (Low) > SNAXO 242/HiCapDR > SBL - Fraim

Options around rack space and integration into living space may mean keeping the 135's is impossible. So we removed the second Fraim stack (borrowed) and setup what could be the final system as a single stack. This would be the test bed for the next 3 days.

We had to choose a way around so started with the unconventional option of the DR on the Base.

While not quite as refined overall as the 135 option the combination of all classic series amps did seem to gel very well. The music flowed and tearing ones self away was very hard. 

I could very much seem this as the final solution to this quest!!

The Final Test will be the below but ran out of time - will try Monday Evening

NDX/XPSDR > HiLine > 52/SCap > 250.2(Low) / 250DR (hi) > SNAXO 242/HiCapDR > SBL - Fraim

Results: TBC

The tests are conclusive on the benefits of active - Stunning, even more so that when I heard the Kudos 707 go from Passive to Active. The instrument separation, decay, vocal emotion and overall engagement from Active is hard to compare or even put into words.

It does raise a few question and i will start a new thread to consider those. The interesting thing is it seems the Harsh top end is, for me, a combo of the 135's and the SBL's. The mate who lent me the 250.2 is trying the 135 in his system (S400) and does not report the same issue at the top end. 

The journey continues, I have a speaker demo booked in two weeks to be sure on the way forward but Active is going to be hard to beat.

I must say its been good fun so far...

Thanks for reading

Rob

Thanks for the thorough writeup, it sounds like you enjoyed it all.  It does make me wonder (perhaps it's been mentioned and I missed it) whether the 135s have been serviced?

Did you get chance to see if the torque wrench made much difference?