Naim/Harbeth

Khan posted:

Just to add my opinion on the matter. I previously ran the Harbeth SHL5+ with a NAC82, Supercap olive into NAP300. 

I have since revamped my system. I am now running the Harbeth Monitor 30.1 with NAC252, Supercap, NAP250DR.

Although the pre-amp/ amp combo was different I believe I could still discern the obvious difference. The SHL5+ is not a lean speaker by any measure to me. It was a very smooth sounding speaker with a large scale sound. That was the most addicting thing about it. The NAP 300 was able to power it very well. So much so that I had to put the grill on the speakers to reduce the bass and improve driver integration. 

The monitor 30.1 in comparison is a more agile speaker. I had to remove the grills in the same room to extract more low end grunt. It has more detail retrieval although, it looses out on scale a little bit due to its smaller cabinet.

The real champion to me is the NAP 250DR.  Initially, I was running a non DR 250 which all changes considered, sounded similar to my previous setup.  Although I’d admit I do not know how much of the performance is based on the NAC 252 preamp, but to my ears the DR 250 is a very noticeable improvement on the NAP 300. Much more air. Treble extension is so sweet. Control of the entire frequency, power. Low end detail. It just seems to track the rhythm of the music effortlessly. 

Now onto the Harbeth speakers. I will honestly say I have tested several speakers from other brands that initially provide a more dynamic sound. But I will always choose a Harbeth speaker for its tuning. Naim gear exceptional PRAT and dynamics so I prefer the speaker to just showcase the flabbergasting talents of the amplification rather than add more attributes of its own. Although I am no engineer or technician, I will make two points about the Harbeth speakers that stand out to me.

All speaker cabinets have a resonant frequency.

Harbeth tunes their speakers to avoid this frequency to dip I  the middle octaves where most of the music lives.

And secondly. People often say Harbeth’s thin wall design is out of date and of poor quality compared to modern designs. But Harbeth deliberately tune their cabinets to flex and work with the drivers to produce an almost instrument like sound. This makes perfect sense to me and along with Naim gear I am completely blown away by the musicality of my system. 

I cannot reccomend this combination highly enough. If anybody has any doubts please do your self a favour and have a long listening session. preferably with a separates setup and good speaker placement i.e speakers away from the walls and coupled to one another perfectly within a room.

Khan

 

 

 

Nice post. Interesting that you find the NAP 250 DR to sound better than the NAP 300 non-DR with the Harbeth M30.1 when another member was suggesting the NAP 300 to be a significant improvement over NAP 250 DR, though on the SHL5 Plus. Either way, the SHL5 Plus sounds exceptionally fine with the 250 DR in my system. 

Mike-B posted:

Stover posted:

a) In fact, I checked availability and price on Cisco 2960 this morning, and found it quite expensive (being a switch) so will check out newest generation Netgear.

 

I'm not convinced the latest Netgear unmanaged switches are better than old models, I had the opposite impression when looking at the latest plastic cased models. 

Still the same model - just v4 vs v3 for the 8 port ones and v5 vs v4 for the 5 port ones. Otherwise they are identical and metal clad.  

I received one speaker this afternoon, the other will arrive on monday I guess. I was surprised by its size, weight and by its impressiveness. while waiting I will spend some hours making some stands, inspired by Tontraeger.

And yes, it seems like I have hijacked this thread.

S

My current switch is Netgear Gs105 and should be good to it's price. I have ordered a Cisco SG110D-05 just to see if theres a difference and caise I need another one.

Both Harbeths are received and I have done a brief listen. So far I have found they are very different to S20 indeed and a comparison would not be the issue here, it's , more of a different taste thing, they both have their strengths and weaknesses and with different priorities. 

Enjoy, S

MangoMonkey posted:

Lol! You're in trouble. You're going from a speaker where "it's all in the treble" to "it's all in the midrange".  You'll probably hate them at first - the lack of 'detail' that you're used to from the Super 20s will nag. And the fact that they will sound as slow as mollases. Oh yeah - and where's the bass?

Give it a few days, and they'll grow on you. When you put the Super20s back on, you'll find a lot of detail gone missing (again). The C7s have tonnes of midrange detail and layers - you'll miss that when you go to the Super 20s...

Or maybe you'll learn to live with them both. I'm curious to see how you do. See my profile for why I can say all this. ;-)

So far I think this post suits my first impressions well 

Stover posted:

.............. I have ordered a Cisco SG110D-05 just to see if theres a difference and caise I need another one.

Interested to read your opinion when you get it.   

Take care to power it up correctly,  switch it on first,  then introduce the powered up ethernets  - either power each device up or plug in the 'live' ethernets.   I didn't do it right with mine   -  D'oh  

ryder. posted:

Khan posted:

Just to add my opinion on the matter. I previously ran the Harbeth SHL5+ with a NAC82, Supercap olive into NAP300. 

I have since revamped my system. I am now running the Harbeth Monitor 30.1 with NAC252, Supercap, NAP250DR.

Although the pre-amp/ amp combo was different I believe I could still discern the obvious difference. The SHL5+ is not a lean speaker by any measure to me. It was a very smooth sounding speaker with a large scale sound. That was the most addicting thing about it. The NAP 300 was able to power it very well. So much so that I had to put the grill on the speakers to reduce the bass and improve driver integration. 

The monitor 30.1 in comparison is a more agile speaker. I had to remove the grills in the same room to extract more low end grunt. It has more detail retrieval although, it looses out on scale a little bit due to its smaller cabinet.

The real champion to me is the NAP 250DR.  Initially, I was running a non DR 250 which all changes considered, sounded similar to my previous setup.  Although I’d admit I do not know how much of the performance is based on the NAC 252 preamp, but to my ears the DR 250 is a very noticeable improvement on the NAP 300. Much more air. Treble extension is so sweet. Control of the entire frequency, power. Low end detail. It just seems to track the rhythm of the music effortlessly. 

Now onto the Harbeth speakers. I will honestly say I have tested several speakers from other brands that initially provide a more dynamic sound. But I will always choose a Harbeth speaker for its tuning. Naim gear exceptional PRAT and dynamics so I prefer the speaker to just showcase the flabbergasting talents of the amplification rather than add more attributes of its own. Although I am no engineer or technician, I will make two points about the Harbeth speakers that stand out to me.

All speaker cabinets have a resonant frequency.

Harbeth tunes their speakers to avoid this frequency to dip I  the middle octaves where most of the music lives.

And secondly. People often say Harbeth’s thin wall design is out of date and of poor quality compared to modern designs. But Harbeth deliberately tune their cabinets to flex and work with the drivers to produce an almost instrument like sound. This makes perfect sense to me and along with Naim gear I am completely blown away by the musicality of my system. 

I cannot reccomend this combination highly enough. If anybody has any doubts please do your self a favour and have a long listening session. preferably with a separates setup and good speaker placement i.e speakers away from the walls and coupled to one another perfectly within a room.

Khan

 

 

 

Nice post. Interesting that you find the NAP 250 DR to sound better than the NAP 300 non-DR with the Harbeth M30.1 when another member was suggesting the NAP 300 to be a significant improvement over NAP 250 DR, though on the SHL5 Plus. Either way, the SHL5 Plus sounds exceptionally fine with the 250 DR in my system. 

Khan, thank you for your very thoughtful post!

I have never been able to audition Harbeth's SLH5 or  M30.1 with Naim gear where I live. I did hear M30.1 at show and was impressed with its musical insight and focus. I found M30.1 seductive, but not being powered by my Naim kit NAC552DR, NAP300DR, I'm not sure what I will find.  Though Khan, after reading your post I will definitely visit an out of the way Harbeth & Naim dealer. One question, Harbeth is known for difficult room placement and my new listening room's "listening space" is about     14" X 12" but overall space is more than 20" wider, do you think Harbeth models your familiar with can project sound within my listening space?

Charles         

cdboy posted:

The Nova is rated 80W per channel into 8 ohms. While the Harbeth's require a bit of driving they are a 6 ohm load and you will be fine.

dose that mean that the Nova and the Supernait2 has the same driving power?

If all you're driving is an 8Ω resistor, then yes.

Huge posted:

If all you're driving is an 8Ω resistor, then yes.

thank you.

so will they sound the same with Harbeth Compact 7E3 ?

Unfortunately the power rating into an 8Ω resistor is only relevant when you're driving a resistor.  When you're driving real speakers, the situation is much more complicated.

However...

No they won't sound the same...

However...

The Nova has plenty of current reserves to successfully drive the Harbeth Compact 7 ES-3 in it's own way (rather than trying to be a SN2).

(Incidentally the NAP250DR has the same output power as the SN2 when driving an 8Ω resistor, and they doesn't sound the same either.)

Mike-B posted:

Stover posted:

.............. I have ordered a Cisco SG110D-05 just to see if theres a difference and caise I need another one.

Interested to read your opinion when you get it.   

Take care to power it up correctly,  switch it on first,  then introduce the powered up ethernets  - either power each device up or plug in the 'live' ethernets.   I didn't do it right with mine   -  D'oh  

I have installed the Cisco switch and the change in musical presentation is more than just noticeable. Better timbre, more dimensional and natural to my ears. Making music clearer, less fatigue, still more enjoyable. Very positive, recommended.

I have sold off the Harbeths. They where far from new and I don`t like the Tiger Ebony finish. That said, I really liked their musical presentation. I have decided to have visit the dealer and have a listen to M30.1 and SHL5+ upon Christmas. If I cope with some of them I`ll buy new since s/h prices in Norway are not that far from new. It might end at C7 for that sake.

For my further journey within Harbeth speakers I will maybe start a new thread when/ if time comes.

S

Stover posted:

I have installed the Cisco switch and the change in musical presentation is more than just noticeable. Better timbre, more dimensional and natural to my ears. Making music clearer, less fatigue, still more enjoyable. Very positive, recommended.

Good to read the little Cisco SG110 worked for you.  Your description reads much like as I found when I changed.    The problem I had at the time was I could not get straight into it.    https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...-audiophilia-nervosa

And by the way Mike-B, thanks for the Cisco tip and which alternative model to have a look at  I will bring Cisco switches into the rest of the Ethernet line as well.

...... and to all of you posting towards my questions 

S

Update; I did sell my Kudos Super 20a and purchased Harbeth SHL5 plus. Quite differs designs and presentations. So far I`m pleased with my choice.

Stover 

Congrats, i like them too with Naim, how do you position  them? Light angle?

Christoph

Room 6 x 4,5m. I`ve had them since Thursday only so not very experienced yet. So far they are placed at the same distance to front wall as C7, about 40cm measured from wall to back of speaker, but a bit wider apart each other, 2,1m side by side and 1,45m from side was. Toe in about 10cm. Listening position about 2,5m.

They are new and I have to show some patience while they run in, before conclusion. That said, so far I feel they hit my heart. 

S 

My stereo dealer is very particular and set my SHL5's face 40" from back wall which is 12' wide.  I have a low wide coffee table between them and light fabric hanging in back.  He did not toe them in, I had done that before he showed up, but he let me know point blank all the things I did wrong.  I sit 8' away in IKEA bent wood rockers, love those chairs because they move.  The space opens up to the rest of the living/dining area.  The sound is incredible, rich and full.

Interestingly the Stereo stack is to the left behind portion of that speaker and when we pushed the stack  back square to the corner there was a horrible reverb he called a standing wave.  Pulling the left side 1" forward eliminated it .  After a difficult 6 hours for me I was so happy to see him drive off.  I've pencil marked where the speakers and the stands are on the floor.

He told me when he left "Don't ever sell these speakers, I had them and sold them, I regret that."

mudwolf posted:

My stereo dealer is very particular and set my SHL5's face 40" from back wall which is 12' wide.  I have a low wide coffee table between them and light fabric hanging in back.  He did not toe them in, I had done that before he showed up, but he let me know point blank all the things I did wrong.  I sit 8' away in IKEA bent wood rockers, love those chairs because they move.  The space opens up to the rest of the living/dining area.  The sound is incredible, rich and full.

Interestingly the Stereo stack is to the left behind portion of that speaker and when we pushed the stack  back square to the corner there was a horrible reverb he called a standing wave.  Pulling the left side 1" forward eliminated it .  After a difficult 6 hours for me I was so happy to see him drive off.  I've pencil marked where the speakers and the stands are on the floor.

He told me when he left "Don't ever sell these speakers, I had them and sold them, I regret that."

Thanks Mudwolf.

Could you please specify, are you talking 40 inches which means 1m from wall to speaker front and the front wall is 12 foot, about 3,6m? I`m a humble guy you know 

Noe toe in, interesting!

40 inches from front of speaker to front wall sounds about right to me. I think I have mine at 42 or 43 inches from the front wall. That said, I am aware that there will be others who prefer their speakers closer to the wall. The sound will be mostly warmer and thicker in the bass and midrange when speakers are closer to the wall. 

ryder. posted:

40 inches from front of speaker to front wall sounds about right to me. I think I have mine at 42 or 43 inches from the front wall. That said, I am aware that there will be others who prefer their speakers closer to the wall. The sound will be mostly warmer and thicker in the bass and midrange when speakers are closer to the wall. 

Ryder, 

When deciding on SHL5+ what other speakers were you considering? Was Harbeth’s involving intimacy a determinant? If say spending twice as much or more was possible, would you have selected another speaker while using Naim gear? My own experience is that while price is always consideration, often it fails to translate into listening experience that allows me come closer to the music. 

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Charles

CXF04 posted:

Ryder, 

When deciding on SHL5+ what other speakers were you considering? Was Harbeth’s involving intimacy a determinant? If say spending twice as much or more was possible, would you have selected another speaker while using Naim gear? My own experience is that while price is always consideration, often it fails to translate into listening experience that allows me come closer to the music. 

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Charles

Hi Charles,

I have lived with the SHL5 (non-Plus) for about 7 years before I upgraded to the SHL5 Plus. I did consider other speakers but my bias toward Harbeth was just too strong, disregarding the fact that I compared both SHL5 non-Plus and SHL5 Plus side-by-side at the dealers before I made the decision. 

The only speaker I considered as an alternative to the SHL5+ was the ATC SCM19 v2. I didn't get to listen to it although I could as my mind was more or less made up when I listened to the SHL5+. I loved the sound of the older SHL5 despite its flaws, or perhaps I should say character, but the SHL5+ just took it to another level for me whilst retaining the house sound of the Harbeth. The other speaker I considered was Proac. I still think I will end up with a small Proac in the near future, specifically the Tablette 10 Signature although I already have the Dali Mentor Menuet in another setup. 

To be able to connect to the music on an emotional level is the key to most people and yes, the Harbeth did it for me in areas of intimacy. So far I haven't heard of a speaker that interest me as much as the Harbeth. You can say I am sort of stuck to the Harbeth so it is highly unlikely I would have gone with another speaker with the Naim even though I could afford it. I am sure there will be better speakers out there but I'm happy with my choice. There are just too many options out there to explore and I"m sure they all sound great. In the end we will just have to pick one. 

I've got both the SHL5+s and the Super 20s. Both do things differently. Give the SHL5+s a few hundred hours to open up. The detail is of a totally different character than the Super 20s...

I’m at an early stage with my Harbeths and with placing them in my room. From playing at the lang wall, about 45cm from speakerback to wall and then moved to the short wall, about 75cm from speakerback to wall. As ryder describes, very different sounding and so far I like the latter better  

Super 20 are great speakers in it’s own way, but don’t have the naturality and mid as Harbeth. I’m even considering P3 or C7 with Atom in our living room, Proac Tablette 10 also tempt me. 

S

ryder. posted:

CXF04 posted:

Ryder, 

When deciding on SHL5+ what other speakers were you considering? Was Harbeth’s involving intimacy a determinant? If say spending twice as much or more was possible, would you have selected another speaker while using Naim gear? My own experience is that while price is always consideration, often it fails to translate into listening experience that allows me come closer to the music. 

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Charles

Hi Charles,

I have lived with the SHL5 (non-Plus) for about 7 years before I upgraded to the SHL5 Plus. I did consider other speakers but my bias toward Harbeth was just too strong, disregarding the fact that I compared both SHL5 non-Plus and SHL5 Plus side-by-side at the dealers before I made the decision. 

The only speaker I considered as an alternative to the SHL5+ was the ATC SCM19 v2. I didn't get to listen to it although I could as my mind was more or less made up when I listened to the SHL5+. I loved the sound of the older SHL5 despite its flaws, or perhaps I should say character, but the SHL5+ just took it to another level for me whilst retaining the house sound of the Harbeth. The other speaker I considered was Proac. I still think I will end up with a small Proac in the near future, specifically the Tablette 10 Signature although I already have the Dali Mentor Menuet in another setup. 

To be able to connect to the music on an emotional level is the key to most people and yes, the Harbeth did it for me in areas of intimacy. So far I haven't heard of a speaker that interest me as much as the Harbeth. You can say I am sort of stuck to the Harbeth so it is highly unlikely I would have gone with another speaker with the Naim even though I could afford it. I am sure there will be better speakers out there but I'm happy with my choice. There are just too many options out there to explore and I"m sure they all sound great. In the end we will just have to pick one. 

 

Ryder,

Thank you for your complete and meaningful response. Your experience with Harbeth further confirms what I continue to learn, that whatever foibles and placement challenges Harbeth line may have, a large percentage of owners find listening meaningful and sustainable. I've been buying equipment for close to 60-years and find most gratifying gear are one's you hate to pull  away from. As serious concert goer I know that having live performance in your home may sound like good idea, but often is too intense, while living with good music reproduction  can train one's musical memory to listen more carefully at performances and to recall elements of works even long after. 

Ryder, thank you again!

Charles