Expensive Cables. Are they worth the Money?

No

To be honest me neither. I'm happy with my modest system so would rather spend money on more music. I think expensive cables would be lost on my system anyway, unless of course  I upgraded my boxes which I have no plans to do.

No , I still have the nice PMC chap words ringing in my head at Audio Show East; he said their cables were about £2 a metre, and the system sounded great.

Gazza posted:

No , I still have the nice PMC chap words ringing in my head at Audio Show East; he said their cables were about £2 a metre, and the system sounded great.

Did you notice if the nice PMC chap was wearing a hearing aid...

No - but already done it with full SL loom and agree cables are often worth more than a box upgrade, if you get the right cables.

DB.

Totally,

I put some Nordost Frey 2 on a superuniti -it certainly came alive in a great and appreciable way.

Darke Bear posted:

No - but already done it with full SL loom and agree cables are often worth more than a box upgrade, if you get the right cables.

DB.

I notice from your profile, you have an absolutely superb system, so congrats on that.

You certainly would not be doing your system justice without the full loom, as you rightly say, it’s all about getting the right cables.

If you find they make a significant difference then that is all that matters. That makes them worth the money. 

When I got SL cables I certainly thought that the performance improvement equated to some black-box upgrades.  On that basis I didn't think the cost was disproportionate.  Looked at in isolation I can understand why some people baulk as the price, but it's always worth remembering that it is the performance of the "system" that matters. The price and performance of any one component is much, much less important.  

MDS posted:

When I got SL cables I certainly thought that the performance improvement equated to some black-box upgrades.  On that basis I didn't think the cost was disproportionate.  Looked at in isolation I can understand why some people baulk as the price, but it's always worth remembering that it is the performance of the "system" that matters. The price and performance of any one component is much, much less important.  

Very much agree. 

Black box upgrades cost considerable sums, and it’s generally accepted that the upgrade, whatever it is will be worth the outlay.

I wonder why it is with cables, many take the opposite view?

True. You can not show off expensive cables to friends.

Unless they like, and you don't mind them rubbernecking behind the system.

electrical engineers on audio forums tend to say the same thing: the physical properties of cables are well-understood and unless your system requires something specific (like some Naim amps) everything within reason should sound the same.

my experience wholly aligns with this view. but hey -- i'm an audio addict too and i just bought some Vertere speaker cables. we'll see if the hundredth time is the charm.

I like cables to have that "now" factor, rather than a "wow" factor 

wenger2015 posted:

Black box upgrades cost considerable sums, and it’s generally accepted that the upgrade, whatever it is will be worth the outlay.

I wonder why it is with cables, many take the opposite view?

I think there is more uncertainty with cable changes than black boxes.  There have been quite a few reports from folks being mightily impressed with the changed presentation from new cables; that impression changing after a period of them settling in/ becoming accustomed to them.  Not always for the better.  I suspect also that speaker cables can have a significant impact on sound which is rather dependent upon the speakers themselves - what works on one system doesn't always work so well with different speakers - generally the biggest variable on a naim based system.  Should you be unfortunate enough to make the wrong call on cable selection, they can be quite brutal in terms of loss of value should you wish to sell on.

None of the above has stopped me dipping my toes from time to time, but IMO cables are a bit less predictable than the impact of a black box change.  Not the easiest to arrange home comparison tests eg naim super lumina; chord sarum/ music; tq black/ silver diamond; etc.

Peter

Wenger, what a provocative question. You know full well that talk of posh cables on here just ends in a massive bun fight! Is there nothing on the telly or something? 

In answer to your question, yes, but in the right system that is transparent enough to make the most of transparent cables.

Dives for cover.

No, since I have vey inexpensive gear.

Expensive cables might make sense only in the context of high end music systems and probably only as icing on the cake, after everything else was sorted out.

My expensive cable upgrades were picking up some Naim NAC A5 from the dealer, they did the trick......

Just buy active ATC’s and use basic cheap mic cable used in recording studios, between them and the preamp.

No nonsense with expensive cables and use the saving to buy more music and actually listen.

It is interesting that Naim never used to sing the praises and virtues of esoteric cables and everyone was more than happy with A5 or whatever.

Beware of marketing ploys .... that is why companies exist. I think Naim simply recognised that people were happy to pay a fortune for snake oil and credit to them, produced their own .... why not, sound business sense!

At the end of the day, spending a fortune on sound reproduction kit, shouldn’t require more outlay on riddiculously priced cables.

It should sound fantastic without such extortionate tweaks to make it perform.

It all reminds me of the children’s proverb about the “Emporers Clothes” ........

No...

seakayaker posted:

My expensive cable upgrades were picking up some Naim NAC A5 from the dealer, they did the trick......

Those were the most expensive cables I have ever purchased and ever care to.

Indeed

Computer designed circuit boards, integrated circuits, discrete regulators, toroidal transformers and all sorts of other electronic wizardry will make a huge difference to sound quality - based on the components and how they are put together.

But, let’s be totally logical .... a length of copper wire (aka speaker cable) is a length of wire ..... see sense and save your cash!

Yes very few cables are worth the money, many are a rip-off.

It's important to listen with an open mind - but I am not myself in an open mind to listen to a Chord Music cable at 3,800 GBP/meter.

The entry level Vertere interconnects are reasonably priced, and are a revelation to my ears.

I don't like the stupid prices of SL cables either but I do like their abilities. 

Mr Frog posted:

Just buy active ATC’s and use basic cheap mic cable used in recording studios, between them and the preamp.

 

............

At the end of the day, spending a fortune on sound reproduction kit, shouldn’t require more outlay on riddiculously priced cables.

It should sound fantastic without such extortionate tweaks to make it perform.

 

 

 

Expensive kit doesn't necessarily require ridiculously priced cables to sound good, which may sound different but not necessarily better than good quality but cheaper professional cable (e.g. Mogami).

But differences in sound definitely can be heard. I tested TQ Black 2.5m speaker cable over a number of weeks comparing to my tried and trusted VdH Magnum (available pretty cheap on the bay). In this comparison the TQ black acts as a high-pass filter, attenuating the bottom two octaves.

This may be OK for people running smaller speakers which don't pass much energy below 60hz, but to me is not acceptable for a full range system. It may also be why people perceive 'more detail' with these cables since this attenuation may help to alleviate in-room bass issues or just highlight mids/treble relative to the bass. I'm sure the TQ behave differently in different systems, but also bet that this result isn't unique to my system.

I agree moving towards active speakers is a great option to avoid all the problems which come with passive crossovers as well as cable audiophilia nervosa, but Yamaha/Mackie active studio monitors probably represent far better value than ATC actives, if you don't mind a utilitarian look.

Mr Frog posted:

Just buy active ATC’s and use basic cheap mic cable used in recording studios, between them and the preamp.

No nonsense with expensive cables and use the saving to buy more music and actually listen.

It is interesting that Naim never used to sing the praises and virtues of esoteric cables and everyone was more than happy with A5 or whatever.

Beware of marketing ploys .... that is why companies exist. I think Naim simply recognised that people were happy to pay a fortune for snake oil and credit to them, produced their own .... why not, sound business sense!

At the end of the day, spending a fortune on sound reproduction kit, shouldn’t require more outlay on riddiculously priced cables.

It should sound fantastic without such extortionate tweaks to make it perform.

It all reminds me of the children’s proverb about the “Emporers Clothes” ........

I can only assume from this rather cynical post that you have never made a careful comparison between SL cables and NACA5. To say that they are 'snake oil' is to claim that they offer no improvement, which is simply not true, and the difference is very obvious indeed to anyone who takes the time to listen. If you make a subjective, informed judgement that the improvement isn't worth the money, that's fair enough, but you might make the same judgement about the difference between, say, a NAP 200 and a 250, or between bell wire and NACA5, which at £32 a metre, many people would already say was astonishingly expensive.